School girls threatened with hate crimes

School girls have been threatened with hate crimes.

Where: in Colorado.

Why: Because they complained about harassment from a ‘transgender’ boy, who was given access to their bathroom.

Who cares: Well, probably no one. By that, I mean no one in government in Queensland.

That’s because the Queensland Government wants to give transgender kids access to the opposite sex bathroom.

So just how long will it be before Queensland school girls are told to shut up if a confused boy, who probably dreams of being a lesbian, starts perving on them in the toilet block. Probably not long.

America gives us all sorts of cultural direction. From McDonalds to movies, America influences Australia. And while I have good friends from the States, it does not mean that everything American is good. Nor does it mean we should not learn from stupidity suffered overseas.

Transgender policies are dangerous in all sorts of way. We don’t need them in Queensland.

Full story here.

(thanks to reader Ivan)

*****

UPDATE: This story has been hijacked. Transgender supporters are claiming that it is not harassment for a male to enter into change room facilities for teenage schoolgirls. This is blatant rubbish. These school girls should not be made to feel uncomfortable just because some delusional boy wishes to be a girl.

All this has proved is that transgender supporters are claiming ‘rights’ to act in ways that would be considered dangerous sexual harassment by anyone else. At any other time, it is harassment for a male to hang out in female change rooms.

Photo by sara anne haas

Author: Bernard Gaynor

Bernard Gaynor is a married father of eight children. He has a background in military intelligence, Arabic language and culture and is an outspoken advocate of conservative and family values.

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  1. Do please remember the ‘body is a temple’ notion while strong in many forms of Buddhism actually isn’t that strong in Christian theology through much of Christian history outside of an actually fairly small branch of Catholicism. After all, changing the body in one respect has been an essential component of Judaism since Abraham. Not to mention the trouble of actually applying it’s arguments to everyone other than Transgender people. Reconstructive surgery? Removing diseased tissue? Dental corrections? Breast implants? Breast reduction? Liposuction? Ear piercing? Shaving off of the naturally growing beard? Oh my oh my how far does it go? There’s a whole lot more people changing their bodies for those reasons in this country than there may be Transgender people on the entire planet! Trouble with Transgender is, the evidence says the brain develops a sex first, then the body does so later, all in the womb at two different stages (we all start as kind-of female, then at each stage we get Hormone Washes in the uterus either getting further feminized or instead masculinized.. or first one then the other or not much of either resulting in all manner of diversity and the many forms of Intersex). Changing the body to match the brain therefore is potentially comparable to fixing a malformation of the leg, a notion i’m sure you will reject out of hand without actually stopping and thinking about it first. But the trouble is if you have ever in your life changed your body using medicine what is they KEY difference that excuses those significant changes to the body Temple as opposed to the one you inexplicably give a special rule against?

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    • Those are interesting points you raise about the body being a temple but it is not that clear. First, it is a part of Christianity, if it is not, it is because parents and clergy are asleep at the wheel. They should be preaching what it means to regard your body as a temple. It is not putting tattoos all over it or piercings everywhere. the tattoos particularly could be seen as a violation of the first and second commandments. In terms of Abraham changing his body (e.g. circumcision) that was a commandment from God. the circumstances you point out could be considered physical health isues, e.g. diseased tissue, dental corrections, but things like breast enlargement is unlikely to be for health reasons. liposuction could be for health reasons as could a breast reduction. Shaving off the beard? Now come on Bayne, a beard is a natural male bodily function. That one is not a good example. ear piercing? if it is extreme is not good. There are some things you can do but the issue of transgenders is another one altogether and an extreme one at that. One consideration not often given much thought is a persons ability to change. It has been proven that homosexuals can change because there are many examples of ones who have. the gay activists hate them because they are showing that it can be done. I have no doubt that for some transgenders it may be near impossible but we don’t know how many can change if they are told repeatedly, you were born that way, just go with it. An important component is seeking the help of God. A person may struggle for the rest of their lives but they will have their reward and it will be glorious. As I said much earlier, you can choose the worlds way or Gods. Choose Gods and you will be blessed beyond belief, forever. That is the choice.

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      • Actually Mick, shaving IS a good example precisely because it is natural and that nature is modified. It is precisely that shaving is standard that proves my point.
        As for piercing by what do you judge extreme? Where is pierced, how large is the piercing stretched, is the jewelry a small bit of silver or a big wooden disc or is that all just double-standards?

        Remember, the evidence of biological causation of Transgender supports the argument that Transgender surgery is not cosmetic but instead more like correcting a malformation, but even if it were purely cosmetic this society doesn’t just allow cosmetic change of the body it demands it. Seen a woman on tv with a hairy back? Legs? Moustache? Men with full beards are a rarity, women with hairy arms legs and upper lips even moreso, this society demands change of the bodies natural form of both men and women. There is nothing natural about shaving, waxing, laser hair removal or electrolysis and yet at least one of these are part of almost every adults life.

        Be sure to look unbiasedly at those gay examples you cite, there is a reason Exodus apologised and closed down, but it’s immaterial to discussion of Transgender

        As for trying to get Transgender people to change, come on Mick people have been trying to cure them for generations and for every claim of a success there are hundreds of suicides. One psychologist tries to cure transgender kids. His ‘success’ cases (and even he admits most attempts fail) include people who become alcoholics and drug addicts and suicidal instead. The cost in dead children and broken adults is far too high for any moral person to advocate it as something that can be demanded or even strongly encouraged.

        And as for God, many Transgender people are strongly religious. The theological argument against Transgender is weak and often relies on debatable translation. For all you know in the resurrection they may be granted bodies that conform to their brains rather than the opposite you suggested. In the meantime we know from generations of trying that allowing each transgender person to decide how much they transition if at all and instead fighting the bullying and discrimination against them is the only way we know to save lives. All other options destroy more lives than they may help.

        So that’s the only Moral thing to do.

  2. And a shy vulnerable teenager has been used by a political organization to raise money for their political campaign using deliberately misleading statements leading to death-threats and the teen on suicide-watch. A teen from a group of people who are regularly stabbed, beaten, verbally abused and oppressed. Yet where are the cries against the organized and orchestrated mistreatment of this teen and the general abuse of these people here? Of those who argue Transgender is sinful where are the cries against the greater sins of this violence? No, there seem to be no followers of the Christ who spent time with tax collectors and prostitutes and spoke out against hypocrisy amongst the ancient priesthood on that side of this discussion. Merely wolves in sheeps clothing.

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    • You know Blayne, on this point you may have a case, maybe Christians (and non Christians) have not been as outraged as you would like. Maybe they should have said more. Maybe they have and we just haven’t heard it. I know some of those one’s in the US get pretty fired up and one eyed, even forgetting some of the ways they should act. It is a sin to change your sex because of the whole ‘body is a temple argument’. It is sad that a person feels they have to go down that path. As I have said I believe it is a mental illness and I believe God would see it that way and as far as judgment goes, He would take that into account. I read something in the Sun-Herald last week that I thought you may find interesting as well. Although it is about people who suffer depression, schizophrenia and some other mental health disorders, it is what it means for all who suffer mental illnesses that I think gives hope to mental illness sufferers. It said,”VICTORIAN researchers are developing a brain implant they hope will provide a breakthrough in the treatment of symptoms of mental illness.

      The implant, a world first, would provide electrical stimulation and deliver drugs directly to impaired areas of the brain.

      The device would work in a way similar to the cochlear implant.

      Plastic electrodes implanted in the frontal area of the brain would provide electrical stimulation, improving connections between brain cells.

      And 3D printing technology would be used to embed proteins that promote healthy cell development into the “biologically active” plastic device, for delivery to the exact problem area.” Mental illness of course is illness of the mind due to a number of factors, one of which is brain structure. You may disagree but to me, it opens up the idea that for things like transgenders, there is hope that one day, it could be a thing of the past, as could many other mental illnesses. I hope so. I know in the eternities, they will be free of it, that is certain. The condition is a temporary one. Sin is temporary, physical deformities, abnormalities, illnesses and so forth are temporary. Resurrection is with a perfect body so no more mental illnesses or disorders. It would be great if our medical researchers could solve this one in this life though. The story is called “Brain device to treat mental illness under development by Victorian researchers ” if you are interested.

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      • The failure to speak out against what amounts to an epidemic of violence, deliberate harassment, bullying induced suicide, sexual assault and in many countries like the USA and UK an epidemic of murder (it’s been calculated that the leading cause of death for African American Transgender people is murder, 3 times higher than any other cause of death!) and while Australia doesn’t have the murder rate we have plenty of assaults with weapons (1 in 3 is a shockingly high proportion, that when this was discovered it got a teeny smidge of ABC news coverage focusing on the lower rate of violence against gays shows just how severe this culture of silence is) means that a greater evil is allowed to go unchallenged and worse people are allowed to fall down that path of wickedness which surely is far far worse than anything transgender people themselves are doing. For every transgender person focused on for ‘saving’ by those sure that it is sinful how many non-transgender people go to hell for attacking and abusing, assaulting and in many countries murdering Transgender people?

  3. Oh and one more thing on evolution. The catholic church does not say we are descended from apes. The catholic churches answer is a bit vague as I looked up to see what the catholics believe and am a bit surprised because it is straight forward from reading Genises. In terms of the earths creation, we are told about it occurring in ‘days’. But is that in days according to our time or another length of time that is a day to God? We don’t know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of eden but we do know Adam was about 930 years old when he died. So the actual period of time from when the creation began until the time Adam and Eve left the Garden is not known. Now I am going to theorise, what was used to create the world? Did the world appear out of nothing (I have read a theory on that one) or was it matter that was in space and God formed it into an earth? If it was from matter unorganised and in space, were prehistoric creatures fossilised within that matter? The last 2 questions is my theorising, not a doctrine of any church, just my thoughts. But as for evolving from Apes. no question, the Bible has the answer.

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    • If you want instruction in the Catholic view on Evolution there’s over 50 years of papal statements on the matter. While you are at it go catch up with Heliocentrism and what that has meant for Christianity. The 17th century is calling you and has many knew things for you to catch up with before learning about the next 300 years you are behind on. You’ve been led astray by fundamentalists twisting of the bible, their version can be actually disproved. People who follow that can lose their faith entirely when they discover it’s faults. You would do well to find the real truth rather than a brittle fragile distorted version that shatters easily.

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      • Well if they do, I stand corrected but I am not a catholic. But the truth as you see it can easily be shown to be faulty like when you said we should all become poor and help others to do the same. Is that your Christianity? Heliocentrism?? yeah, whatever. The scriptures could be interpreted that way, you have to admit that at least but they could also be read another way. But even anciently, they knew the earth went around the sun. What the catholic church decide to believe was up to them. Protestants didn’t begin for no reason. But based on the unisual interpretations you have given in our discussion, I will stick with the prophets.

      • Come on, address the heliocentrism argument with a bit more honesty. The attempts by fundamentalist ideological pseudo-Christians to borrow the islamic notion that the entire bible is the literal infallible directly dictated word of god falls apart on many different points. Or do you actually think the rain is held in a big container above the sky that falls down upon the earth when god opens a window?

        Of course in a world of many religions we need secular ethics that protect religious belief but do not impose any one religion over the others (needed to honestly protect religious belief). So when discussing what the laws should be and what society needs we need more than just a theological reason. What do we do about the Religious Rights of the native American Transgender people the Two-Spirits? Or the Indigenous Australian Sistagirls? Or the traditional religions of the Polynesians.. the list is quite extensive and as religious rights apply not just to Christians but to Jews and Muslims and Hindu and Taoists and Buddhists and also the native peoples i just mentioned. Remember, any claim you make that Christian rules should be imposed over them entitles them to impose one of their religions rules over Christians! Remember well the phrase ‘for you were strangers in the land of Egypt’ from the bible, so important it was said several times over.

  4. Now Blayne, just to change the subject for a moment, here’s one for you. I just came across some interesting information and while it is not accepted 100% as questions still exist and I know there are possibly some persons of a certain type who may have the following condition for different reasons, I have been reading about how pedophilia has been linked to brain structure. This includes being ‘wired’ differently even as far back as being in the womb. In other words, pedophilia in some, if not all pedophiles, may be just ‘the way they were born’. Check it out Blayne, research it, many if not all pedophiles were born that way. You will get some different opinions but they all seem to conclude a difference in brain structure for pedophiles whether from the womb or after. Now we have another category of person that falls under the same criteria you set out that we should support transgenders including born that way. Based on your criteria that you yourself have put forth in the long conversation we have had, do you accept that we should support pedophiles in pedophilia? With reference to the criteria that you have set out for support for transgenders, If not, why not?

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    • You have shown yourself to be an arguer In Bad Faith. For even if your contention turns out to be correct i ALREADY pointed out to you when you tried this with narcissists and psychopaths is that the point where it became ethical to intercede was when someone was unable to engage in Reciprocal Ethics. As a child is not old enough to give informed consent to sex with an adult then the actions of a pedophile just like a psychopath or narcissist or bestialist cannot be ethical and so intervention in their behaviour is ethical for others to do. However that does not work against Transgender people and so there is not the justification. I have made this point repeatedly so you cannot claim ignorance of it therefore your 3rd attempt at the same argument is to argue in Bad Faith and attempt to deceive and bear false witness. However Transgender people are at severe risk of harm from non-transgender people with 1 in 3 having been assaulted with a weapon, 46% having been assaulted, 92% having received verbal abuse as well as extremely high rates of being sexually assaulted and all this bullying and violence is a known factor in an attempted suicide rate of, in Australia about 40% and in the USA up to 54%. Any allegation of some form of passive harm from Transgender people to non-transgender people is utterly insignificant against the known active harm done to them by non-transgender people. In the words of Jesus Christ in Mathew 7:3-5 3 “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

      4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

      5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”

      When you have spoken out the greater against the active violence and harassment of transgender people then against the transgender people themselves, and only then, shall any of your words have any value, then and only then shall anyone see and know you for a true christian, for a good person. That you concern yourself with lesser things and yet let such great wickedness go unchallenged shows you to be neither.

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      • lol, an arguer in bad faith, good one!! Reciprocal Ethics huh, it still comes down to interpretation of what how a person wants to be treated under any set of circumstances. I would rather not be lied to so I would not want people to lie to me. Isn’t that treating someone justly? Isn’t that respect, rather than saying something as a bandaid solution or something that is temporary? You talk of ethics, well is it ethical to say to someone that something is ok, when in fact it is not? You imply in your comment that in the cases of psychopaths, narcissists and pedophiles (who all have differences in brain structure as do transgenders) that the issue of transgenders does not hurt anyone. That is not the case. As with the gay agenda which has taken over Massachusetts, the transgender one is following. It is about forcing people to accept their agenda Blayne. It has hurt many families and will continue to do so. So your point about children not old enough to give informed consent, well the adult population are not being given the opportunity to give or not give their consent. Is that ethical? Is it ethical for a school counselor to refer a young teenager to gay groups without the parents consent? You see the LBGT groups are very unethical. They force, they take away your and my right to say no, I don’t agree with that. That is what has happened in massachusetts. Also Canada has been having the same things happening. If you want to talk ethics, let’s look at the ones pushing the LBGT agenda. So my argument does hold up, you just have to look at it from another perspective. I agree that children are not old enough to consent to sex, Alfred Kinsey would disagree but we all think differently. To your next bit, yes, some have suffered abuse but in that respect, they are the same as other groups. It’s not right, I don’t (and Christianity doesn’t) condone it. Your next point is interesting. So now it comes down to who does the least harm. Passive harm may not have the physical impact such as being assaulted but there is a harm but it is to society as a whole. You only need to look at Massachusetts to see what passive harm can do. It can equally if not more devastating. Your next point, crap. I have told you repeatedly, Christians have a responsibility to stand up for their beliefs. You ask any practising Christian and I would think they would not support going around assaulting people. But they would not condone people changing their sex. It is not the beam in your eye argument, that is not what is happening here. Jesus spoke against what was wrong. He expects us to follow His example and to not support what is wrong and to speak against that which is wrong. We have laws to prosecute those who assault others. Do Christians need to get up and protest against assault every time one occurs? But when laws may change and it is against what Christians believe , especially when it will affect society as a whole and have consequences on them, they should be able to disagree. It is not about judging people Blayne, it is about saying that we do not agree. You can throw all of your judgmentalism against Christians (the very thing you claim we are doing) but it does not change the fact that it is not condoned of God. You may disagree, 99% of the worlds population may disagree but Gods will is not about consensus. He set up the family unit as the standard for us to follow. That is, man and wife, that is man and woman. Anything else is wrong. That is Gods will Blayne, for a man to join together with a woman. Not a man to a man, woman to woman, changing your sex, bestiality, pedophilia and all other sexual deviations. You disagree, that’s fine Blayne, we have freedom to choose.

      • Firstly, there’s all sorts of kinds of brain differences, That Transgender people who say they are women have brains with marked female traits is rather different from a psychopath who more closely resemble someone with specific types of brain damage, quite a different thing. Now you claim that Transgender people cause harm… and you cite that harm as ‘forcing people to accept their agenda’ and what would that agenda be? They ask for no more than fairness yet you seem to think that fairness is magically unfair. Did you have the same objection when people of other races wanted fairness? When women wanted fairness? When Jews wanted Fairness? When Protestant wanted fairness from Catholic and Catholic from Protestant? That would be Christ’s Agenda they ask for, to be treated with the same respect and fairness as everyone else. List the SPECIFIC harms you speak of and include arguments as to WHY they are unfair instead of the fairness claimed. As for who gets consent over whom.. do i really need to spell that out to you? I guess it was so long ago that the Jews were strangers in the land of Egypt that you are unable to comprehend the lesson of scripture… so you may need some exercises in empathy. Shall we go through some? And finally to assault… when the people you object to suffer the rates of violence they do YES Christians, the real ones, do need to and do object whenever it happens. For every Transgender person you are trying to ‘save’ how many people are you failing to even try to save from the wicked sins they do unto Transgender people? You let hundreds go down a path of wickedness for every transgender person you are worked up about. And the damage to society of allowing such violence to not only occur but to occur in numbers higher than DECIMATION i suggest is far worse than any harm done by transgender people even in your best possible case for them causing harm.

  5. Mick further up in the conversation you used an argument that if true means that by your standard quite a few Popes including John Paul II are not Christians! You called the official Catholic position on evolution non-Christian making the majority of Catholics not Christians, the curriculum at Catholic Schools since i was in school non-Christian, all the Catholic Priests Nuns and Monks i’ve ever met non-christian, really quite staggering a claim. I’d already pointed out to you what happened with Galileo, your Fundamentalist Ideological version of Christianity, the one Pope Francis recently warned us all about http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/do-not-reduce-the-faith-to-moralistic-ideology-pope-warns/ was disproven centuries upon centuries ago when the world was found to circle the sun rather than the other way around and rain and snow was found to form through processes rather than being kept in storerooms above the sky. So you should take your false-Christianity back to Satan and follow the Pope’s advice to find your way back, he said these things to you, for you.

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    • LOL!!! LOL!!! oh my goodness, It may surprise you but I am not catholic old son. Anyway, the catholic church seems to be a bit confused about the issue so your argument is lost on me. I refer to the Bible where it clearly states, God created Adam and Eve, that is unequivocal. Let’s go to the Bible, doesn’t it say, “and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul”? Doesn’t it say in religion somewhere, ‘from dust thou art, to dust shalt thou return’? Anyway, if the catholics are not committing to what the BIble says, that is a matter for them. Take my false Christianity back to Satan??? LOL LOL LOL. Gee whiz, what did they teach you at marist brothers? isn’t that where you claimed you got your ‘Christian education?
      Oh and as for the Golden rule, it seems the only interpretation is your one, isn’t that right Bayne? I see it one that I would want to know the truth, live the truth and breathe it. I would not want someone telling me lies such as many in the LBGT industry do. Judging Bayne should not be confused with not agreeing. You think because I don’t agree with transgenders that I am judging them. I have never said they are bad people, I have never said people should go out and make life difficult for them but I have said I don’t agree with it and I am standing up with many others and expressing that point of view. It seems if any judging is going on it is from people like you who confuse disagreement with judgment of the individual. See even in your last response you are very judgmental of me. Seems the pot calling the kettle black. You go onto the good samaritan which has no relevance to this whole discussion. When you boil it all down Blayne, we disagree on the issue of transgenders. That has nothing to do with the good samaritan. If anything the good samaritan was about helping people but it is how you help them that is important. Do you support them in bad choices or do you help them find the right way? As I said you confuse disagreement with judgment of the individual. The day you learn the difference, we may get somewhere in this discussion. Anyway onto another point which is my next comment below.

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      • So what if you are not a Catholic, when it was discovered that the Earth revolves around the Sun portions of the bible were shown to be false if taken literally and so if true must be so as allegory. It is no wonder that you have so much trouble with modern medical science when you haven’t yet caught up with the 1700’s!

  6. Bayne I have just come across an article from the Age in 2009 that bernard has included on another posting. I just want to leave everything that we have said previously for a moment. The link is this one, http://www.theage.com.au/national/sexchange-clinic-got-it-wrong-20090530-br3u.html . It does not say one way or another what is right or wrong in the transgender debate but it does speak about one element of what I have said to you. Now this is not a Christian teaching that has been taught to me so maybe a bit of prayer for confirmation is needed and although I know you disagree with me, my personal opinion is that transgender is a mental illness. The article tells of things that went wrong and how people realised after the operations that it was the wrong decision and they struggled to live as the opposite sex. I know it can’t be taken as a general thing but even one wrongly diagnosed person, irreparably changed is too much. I know from what you have written that you would be saddened to know it turned out badly for some of those people. But unfortunately the change is permanent. One man who changed was sad because now he would never be able to have children. Many experts claimed there were mental problems other than the confusion over gender which contributed as well. Bayne it comes down to which experts you listen to. I am not discounting the possibility of brain structure as in influence and different brain structures, as we know, can affect the behaviour of a person. There is evidence that other mental issues also play a part as mentioned in the article. I note also in the article that transgenderism is classified as ‘gender-identity disorder’. You would also know I assume that there is some debate as to whether it is a medical disorder as you seem to agree with or if it is a mental disorder as I believe it is. The point is Bayne that even the experts are not in agreement. Now, I know a bit about autism as i work with autistic kids and know autistic people. Until recently, there was a diagnosis of aspergers Syndrome. You may have heard of it. Autism and Aspergers were given as a separate diagnosis. there was also PDD-NOS which meant that a person exhibited some attributes of autism and some attributes of Aspergers but not enough for a formal diagnosis of either. Now there is just Autism which includes Aspergers under the same name. Now, if you have Aspergers, you are classified as autistic. I know we are talking about different conditions, but my point is that expert opinion changes over time. The name used to describe transgenders in medical/pychological terminology has changed in some paces for example, from gender-identity disorder to gender dysphoria. So in the medical and psychiatric professions, confusion still exists. Is it a medical problem or is it a mental one? To me I believe it is a mental one as I have said before. In terms of Christianity, though it is not as far as I am aware a church teaching, I believe the kindest, most compassionate, loving way to view transgenders is that it is a mental issue and I will tell you why I believe it is so. On this earth, none of us are promised a perfect body. this is a physical existence and the sicknesses, frailties and illnesses will not be with us in the eternities. Transgenderism is a temporary physical condition due to 1 or more factors. After the resurrection, we will have perfect bodies without imperfection. Males will have male brains and vice versa for females. Eunuchs will have a perfect male body, people such as Chastity, Chers daughter (now Chas) will be a woman forever. All of us have ‘crosses to bear’ in this life. some seem harder than others but we all have strengths and weaknesess. God will help us in those struggles if we invite Him into our lives. Some people have disabilities that limit what they are able to accomplish in life. Some people have mental problems that limit what they are able to accomplish. Some have both disabilities and mental issues. God does not expect us to be perfect but He expects us to try. He wants us to have faith in Him and keep His commandments and he will help us. Some people struggle with problems all of their lives. Some overcome them. If there is a reason why someone cannot overcome, then God does take that into account. Only God truly knows the level of mental illness a person has. I know someone with Aspergers and ADHD as well as being a teenager. I look at their behavior and sometimes wonder, how much is due to aspergers, how much to ADHD and how much just because of adolescence. It is not possible for me to tell, but it is possible for God. God is the only one who truly knows and understands what transgenders go through because He has a perfect knowledge. My personal feeling is that if a transgender person does change their body that God does understand. I do not believe He agrees with the decision because I do not believe He would encourage someone changing their body (which is a temple) in that way. But if I am right and it is a mental illness then divine justice would demand that mental illness which causes limitation on what a person can accomplish or endure because of a mind that cannot function in a so called ‘normal’ way, could be overcome by Godly mercy and I believe God may welcome that person into His kingdom. But the key is, is it a mental illness? And to what extent does a person suffer from it? There is still no guarantee that they will be with God in His kingdom but the only one who can perfectly judge, is God. Transgenders to me are different to gay and lesbian people. But I believe that it does not mean they can’t be with God eternally. I have heard that in my church, in a place in the states, that the direction was to welcome them into the congregation but the thing is Bayne, that to be welcomed and be a member ‘of good standing’ they must keep the commandments like anyone else. That means no same sex relationships, and the other commandments you probably know of. The changing of one’s body is not good and not sanctioned by God but isn’t that why Jesus came? To free us from our mistakes. If a transgender person, even if changed, can repent and place that issue under the umbrella of the atonement, they can be with God. There is hope in that. I’ll leave you that to ponder over, I don’t know if I have been clear or muddied the water but I hope I have been able to help you understand why I feel that transgenderism is a mental issue and why, in the Christian way, it is kind and compassionate to view it in that way. I’ll give my hand a break, had 5 stitches so need to take a break from typing.

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    • You know it is possible to work out which self-proclaimed ‘experts’ are correct.. you should look at the follow-ups to that piece of news as well as the death from suicide rates of the treated and non-treated… in matters of surgery triage and any medical intervention it’s a matter of determining the most likely outcome and best odds right? Well guess what treatment has the best odds… Again you try and call what has been shown to be biological as if it were psychological. Even Doubting Thomas didn’t try to disbelieve once the evidence was there before him. As for the opposition to changing the body i do hope you aren’t hypocritical when it comes to women and girls with pierced ears or people with tattoos (or for that matter women having their heads uncovered in church)… but Jesus said If thine eye offend thee pluck it out so clearly he thought some things mattered a whole lot more than what was done to the body. And as i’ve already shown that many Eunuchs in biblical times dressed and lived as women some taking female hormones to grow breasts etcetera so if Jesus were so fervently against this he would have clearly said so in his sermons mentioning Eunuchs! Yet that he did not, that there is only one point of dubious translation n a passage about leaving the judgement ONLY to God but spoke often about the giving away of riches means you if you truly care about peoples souls should be spending more time ensuring that you are poor and covet no material goods and helping others to do the same. Instead you ignore what Jesus often preached about and set yourself fervently against something we cannot be sure he ever spoke against and you cannot show he was not speaking in favour of in Mathew 19:12! And to top it all off you suggest we impose your interpretation over all of society when Jesus preached AGAINST doing that? As for your injured hand, i’m sorry to hear of it and i hope it heals quickly.
      Meanwhile a bullied teen has been bullied to the point of being suicidal by a political group spreading distorted press releases in order to raise funds for their political campaign.. something far more sinful than anything else in this discussion and plenty of people here who claim to be Christians and are happy to assume those who disagree with them cannot be Christian haven’t yet spoken against condemned that sinful wrongful behaviour? I’ve met more Athiests and Pagans who live closer to Christs teachings!

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      • you know I thought I would get a more positive response from you. Not that you would agree with me but the tone of your response is dissapointing. I had hoped we could find some common ground but I guess not. In terms of the reason for the flood, the jewish texts also mention it. In Genesis Rabbah 26:5 it says “Rabbi Huna in the name of Rabbi Yosef (said): The generation of the Flood was not wiped out until they wrote gemumasi’ot for (the union of a man to) a male or to an animal.” So there you have it Bayne , it was the last straw and God sent the flood.

      • Bestiality has nothing to do with Homosexuality let alone Transgender Mick.

      • Did you read it, here it is again, “The generation of the Flood was not wiped out until they wrote gemumasi’ot for (the union of a man to) a male or to an animal.” That covers same sex marriage and bestiality. Is that not clear? In other words, the union of a male to a male or the union of a man to an animal. Does that make it clearer? Surely you can admit that at least.

      • I misread it and acknowledge that. I for one am able to admit when i am mistaken.
        However something so vague as to have such an ‘or’ in it doesn’t bode well for certainty now does it. And it’s apocrypha, not canon, if we start counting apocrypha there’s a host of ancient texts that would throw all scripture into disarray, the Gospels of Thomas and Judas, Jesus striking a child in a palm tree dead with a glance who teased him, that the kingdom of heaven would come only when no more children were born, that earth is actually hell ruled over by Satan and only renunciation of physical existence leads to heaven.. when you start adding apocrypha you enter very messy territory because outside the canon is a very long list of competing Jewish and Early Christian religious notions.

      • Ok Bayne, going through your latest offering, the follow ups? Wasn’t it regret about the sex change? Difficulty in living as the opposite sex, Attempted suicide, isn’t that the results? Maybe you don’t acknowledge that because it goes against your point of view. Now Bayne, I have acknowledged there is a physical basis as in brain structure (e.g. biological) in transgenders but that causes a change from the norm (a male knowing he is a male and acting as a male) which is, for example, a male thinking he is a female (a mental issue). You will agree with experts who have the opinion you want but won’t acknowledge maybe they are wrong because other experts disagree with them, in other words, the experts don’t agree so you cannot say for certain that it is not a mental illness. You believe it is ok for transgenders to be supported in their behavior but for other people who act in abnormal ways for exactly the same reasons as transgenders, you don’t agree so you have a double standard. You do not treat every person with equality because you single out transgenders only and others, they are the ones with mental illnesses or incorrect behaviours that need correcting. You talk as if you have moral superiority but in this issue you have shown a hypocritical attitude. We will not agree so let’s move on to your next point. Tattoos and piercings. Tattoos, no they are wrong. Sometimes there are cultural reasons but the standard is to treat your body as a temple. For men that means no tattoos and piercings. For women, no tattoos and ear piercings to a minimum. Now you made a big hullaballoo about where things such as men allegedly changing into women in ancient times all over the known world. The question is, did God agree with it if, if it happened as you claim. Today, piercings and tattoos are everywhere and Christians and non Christians have them. Just because they have them, does it mean God approves? So your argument about “Eunuchs in biblical times dressed and lived as women some taking female hormones” doesn’t hold up in a Christian sense because there is nothing that says it was approved of God. The eunuchs Jesus mentioned were men Bayne, not men who became women. You cannot prove they were women. You also said “Jesus said If thine eye offend thee pluck it out so clearly he thought some things mattered a whole lot more than what was done to the body” As I and others have said, your understanding is lacking. Jesus in that section of the scriptures was talking about chasity. He was talking to the disciples and making a point forcefully about the sin of lust. I’m not sure if you are aware but Jesus spoke in parables and used symbolism a lot. We receive images through our eyes and into our thoughts and Satan can use that imagery to exert control on our thoughts. He was saying is it better to lose an eye rather than lose an eternal reward? He was making a point. So the apostles then learned that they needed to be careful about the things they saw because there could be eternal consequences. Bayne scriptures are not always what they first seem. You need to dig a bit deeper to understand what was really being said. You then say, “if Jesus were so fervently against this he would have clearly said so in his sermons mentioning Eunuchs”. That is purely your opinion Bayne. And, for all you know, He did and it wasn’t recorded. That statement is pure speculation on your part so we need go no further on that point. Now Mathew 19:12, ok then. “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb” These were abnormalities of birth. They could not have children and were classed as eunuchs.“and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men” These eunuchs were emasculated men attached to the courts of eastern rulers. Eunuchs also were used to watch harems and were often given trusted positions as officials. “and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake.” What reason, Bayne, would a man make himself a eunuch for heaven’s sake? It is not a requirement to enter heaven to become a eunuch. It does not guarantee entry to heaven by becoming a eunuch so there had to be another reason. Might I suggest one. My opinion is that one reason could be for men who did not want to sin unto death by being involved in activities that could stop them gaining admittance into the kingdom of heaven. What about pedophiles? What about a person that cannot control themselves sexually? Because of the nature of what it means to become a eunuch, the possiblility of raping another person, for example is taken away. A homosexual who could not control his urges may have chosen to become a eunuch because God was more important to him than satisfying carnal desires but he could not control himself so he became a eununch. These could be reasons for making oneself a eunuch for heavens sake. “He that is able to receive it, let him receive it”. Can you receive it Bayne? Then you say, “And to top it all off you suggest we impose your interpretation over all of society when Jesus preached AGAINST doing that?” No Bayne society chooses what it will and won’t tolerate. Unfortunately minority opinion sometimes gets the attention. Although you may not like it, this country is still majority religious but then even many non Christians disagree with transgenders, gays and lesbians so it is not just the religious as many gay activists like to think. So as religious people and others who disagree with the LGBT standards, we have a right to say our opinion. I know that gay activists don’t like that, they only like one opinion, their own. Jesus was against dictatorial types of government but He did not preach against standing up for what you believe in and he wants us to stand up for his Gospel. Right now, the LGBTI wants to impose it’s beliefs and standards on the rest of the community. Jesus was against that methods used by gay activists becuase they are about compulsion, not free choice. What is it, 2 or 3% of the community wants to force their standards on the other 97 or 98% of the country. The very thing you accuse the religious of is the very same thing the LBGT community is trying to do. They are forcing people in america as we speak to accept homosexuality. A judge in Massachusets in 2007 ordered that the homosexual agenda be taught to Christian children attending a public school. The parents were told they could not even take their kids out just for that class. And you talk about religious people forcing our will on others? The gay agenda is all about force, forcing others to accept it whether they agree with it or not and there are many examples of that. Your attitude on that point is hypocritical. I agree with you on one point, it is sad what has happened to that teen but who put the teen in the position? Blame the Christians, blame the Christians is what you hear. People may have gone over the top, you are claiming things that maybe you don’t know of and are just speculating again. I don’t know but you have to accept, Bayne, that we have the right to our opinion and the right to stand up for it and protest against what you think is right if we believe you are wrong. You think Jesus said just accept whatever other people do. Rubbish. Jesus stood up for what he knew was right. He expects us to do the same. That’s why I have been unsure if you are a Christian or not because of your lack of understanding. It is true that some Christians act in very unchristian ways and a lot of non Christians do live more righteous lives than a lot of Christians. A lot of non Christians also live very wicked and depraved lives. But we repent if we do act badly when we realize it or at least we should. But what you think is wrong on our part does not mean that we are. I can tell that the examples you you use to claim Christians are not doing what Jesus said shows that you misunderstand the scriptures. You don’t necessarily read a scripture in isolation and claim it says something without understanding the symbolism or what was meant. It’s funny how non Christians quote a few scriptures and try to twist it their way as if they are authorities on the scriptures. The bit where you say about giving away riches, ensuring you are poor and helping others to do the same. That is a classic example Bayne. Do you want to know what it really means when Jesus told the rich man to give away all he had and being poor?

      • Mick, using examples of the small minority of people who regret their decisions regarding surgery is no more valid an argument than calling Jesus a warmonger because there were some crusades done in his name (actually is even less of one and no-one can honsetly call Jesus a warmonger). First compare the consequence rates for those denied treatment. The HIGHER suicide rate from those denied surgery than those who got it. Not every drug works but Drugs with LOWER effectiveness than Transgender treatment get hailed as wonder-drugs! Next compare the role of botched surgery in the cases.. after all there’s a reason most Transgender people go to Thailand instead of Australian surgeons and it’s because they have better surgical results. When other surgeries are botched there can be similar consequences, should we ban all surgery because there are some failure rates even when the majority are successes? Once you’ve dealt with the FACTS you can start evaluating things HONESTLY. As for experts aggreeing you can find a crackpot quack evidence-denier ideologist (remember the Pope’s recent warning about Ideological Christians?) who calls themselves an expert for every single claim imaginable somewhere but that doesn’t make a fake or pseudo-expert’s opinion equal to every others. Some have opinions based on evidence and some are liars saying things which have been disproved and the evidence shows which is which easily enough so try it some time! And note that if God makes a person with a woman’s brain in a mans body they don’t ‘think’ they are a woman they think AS a woman as they have a Woman’s Organ for Thinking. A pretty big difference, and at the time of the resurrection for all you know God may give them a woman’s body not the mans one you assume he will give them how is any of us to know when he hasn’t told us which? I’ve explained to you the standard for who needs their behaviour correcting.. it’s the capacity to follow God’s 2nd most important rule, the one you keep failing, treat others as you want them to treat you, the principle Jesus taught that is also the basis for all Secular and Interfaith Ethics. If psychopaths and narcissists can do that then no-one needs to correct their behaviour, as Transgender people can then it’s not an issue so i have shown no hypocrisy (or if i have you have yet to show what and where). You talk of majorities but neglect to acknowledge that the majority of people, even the majority of Christians, support equality (poll after poll over more than the last 10 years show this including one some years ago supporting anti-discrimination laws protecting Transgender people that had more than 80% support which means not only did most people agree with it but even if every single atheist and non-christian supported it the majority of Christians supported it and the majority of people supporting it were still Christians!). As for your false deceptive force argument (and again back to Gays, what are you obsessed with them or something? We are supposed to be talking about TRANSGENDER) when they start trying to ban being Cisgender (or Heterosexuality seeing as you seem unable to not keep bringing Gays into the conversation for some reason) you get to argue ONLY that they have seen what others did to them and treated them back the same. Do Unto Others what you would have them Do Unto You means that they are entitled to BAN Heterosexuals, BAN being Cisgender, Imprison them, Ostracize and Segregate them, Celebrate the Bullying of them, Turn aside and walk past when they are bashed and murdered, Spread known falsehoods about them, Bully young vulnerable examples of them in International Media in order to raise funds for political campaigns… so far they are doing far far far less than that, yet until they do MORE than that they will not have crossed the line set by what was first done unto them. With a bullying and discrimination and prevented treatment attempted suicide rate ranging between 30% and 54% depending on the degree of discrimination faced, with 1 in 3 Transgender people in Queensland having been assaulted with a weapon and almost 1 in 2 having been bashed, with extreme rates of being victims of sexual assault and harassment levels through the roof even though only 4% of people polled were strongly opposed to them getting anti-discrimination protections in Australia you should be a lot more worried about the hate-filled violent abusive 4% than any similar amount of harmless vulnerable innocent Transgender people who keep being bashed and bullied by that minority of anti-transgender people who unlike most Transgender people utterly fail to Do Unto Others as they would have Others Do Unto Them! For even if, hypothetically, you were entirely right on all counts you would still be picking on a much lesser problem than the dreadful evil occurring within the fold on your own side of the argument. When you have exhausted at LEAST as much effort condemning and educating and halting them as you have used arguing with me you might convince me that you are anything like a good person or a real genuine follower of Christ.

      • You keep going back to do unto others as you would have them do to you. The 2nd great commandment was to love thy neighbor as thyself. You say I fail at it, well who made you my judge, Bayne. Aren’t you doing the very same thing you accuse others of? Anyway, what the second great commandment means Bayne, can be different things to different people. How you want to be treated may be different to how I want to be treated. Would I want people telling me lies or would I want the truth? Well the truth would be nice but in this world that can be hard to find. If I had something wrong with me that would prevent me from returning to God, if I was a Christian, I would want to know. You may not want to know, that is your choice on how you want to be treated. I want to be treated differently inasmuch as I want to know the truth and act accordingly. As I have said repeatedly, you don’t understand the golden rule because we all have different perspectives. You may tell me something is ok when it is not. Now unless you are happy with people telling you lies, then you and I are alike in that we want to be told the truth when people speak to us. So if you told me something that was not true, you would not be treating me how I want to be treated so then you would be indicating to me that it is ok to lie to you because that is how you treated me. Do you understand? The question is however, what is the truth? We can go to 2 main sources, God or the world. As worldly wisdom has a bad habit of changing, I choose God. With God we can use 2 main sources. First, the scriptures, which are a record of Gods dealings with His children and written by prophets. 2nd, we can pray. To pray, we prepare ourselves by seeking God. We do this by searching the scriptures, attending church (keeping the Sabbath day holy) and learning how to open the lines of communication between us and God. You can as I said, choose worldly wisdom but the ideas of men change frequently, don’t they. The hypocrisy Bayne is saying transgenders can act in that way because of their brain structure which causes them to want to act in certain ways. But you say narcissist and psychopaths should not be given the same consideration even though they fulfill the same requirements you use to support transgenders in their behaviours. That is hypocrisy and inequality. The polls? You may be right but it depends on various factors such as where it was done and to whom were the questions asked? 80%?? I doubt it, 80% of Christians supporting same sex marriage and transgenders?? Seriously??? I doubt that Bayne. Now next you make a very common but totally false claim, that all of the bad things that happened, such as bashings, etc are the fault of religion. Let’s look at Northern Ireland and the catholics and the protestants. They bombed eachother, killed eachopther and did all manner of evil things to eachother and non Christians in the name of their religion. Was it the fault of their churches or the result of hatred, trying to control and basically going against the very principles they claimed to believe in? They were not following the commandments of God, Bayne and it is the same for every Christian person who bashes a gay or transgender or murders them or does whatever horrible thing has been done to them in the past. You say,” Turn aside and walk past when they are bashed and murdered”. That one is something a lot of people would do, Christian or non Christian alike. If someone is being murdered, it would take a huge amount of courage for anyone to intervene and put their own lives at risk so you also have to be fair in your charges against Christians, Bayne. And remember, lot’s of people are assaulted and they are not gay or transgender. It is wrong to assault people obviously and against the Gospel but people sin, that’s a fact and if they do bash people, they need to fix things up with God and the person they assaulted. And then you make another judgment (didn’t you say Christians shouldn’t judge? But you do.) by saying,” the dreadful evil occurring within the fold on your own side of the argument.” So Christians are evil now, is that it? Wow, what a judgment on your part, you have failed that commandment, eh? . Here is how you should say it truthfully, Bayne. ‘There is a section of Christianity that commits evil acts against trangenders but that is not general across all of Christianity as most are good and treat people fairly. Christians have a right to stand up for their beliefs but not commit awful acts against transgenders.” Doesn’t that sound better, Bayne? As far as what you think of me Bayne, I don’t really care. I try to follow the savior but like everyone else on the planet, even you bayne, I am not perfect. Christians however should not condone something that God does not. What you and all supporters of the LGBT population want everyone to do is support them in what is wrong. All I have done is support a stand that is against people becoming transgender as it is wrong for people to change their sex. They can’t really anyway so it is a bandaid solution. That is the great lie perpetrated on them, that they can actually be the person they want to be. They can change the outer appearance to a degree but can never be the opposite sex. What about sexual relationships? If a man has changed to be a woman, does he go after men? If so, in a Gospel sense, that is a same sex relationship, 2 men. If the man who has changed the outer to become a woman goes after a woman, then you have the problem of avoiding the appearance of evil but I see that as more acceptable if they kept that side of their lives private. For example, you could not have the appearance of 2 women (1 hetero, 1 transgender) kissing in church. You have the children to think about and you cannot have that image placed in young minds. So is the solution is to lie to them? And if they are a Christian, they also need to know they will return to the original sex in the next life. If they are not Christian, they probably don’t care though. So back to the truth Bayne. Maybe the approach is support them in that choice and don’t tell them what the truth is. Is that loving our neighbor? I don’t think so. As I said earlier, we can go 2 ways. We can follow Gods plan for our happiness or follow the worlds. The worlds will last for this life. Gods plan will last forever. The world’s plan will change the physical body for this life only. God’s plan will change a person on the inside for eternity despite mortal struggles, even a transgender. The question is, which will a person choose?

      • Oh and what is your take on what I said on how the LBGT agenda is to force their agenda on the rest of society? You only have to look at the US and Canada. Do you know about it or do you think it is not true?

      • You made yourself the judge of others, so others may judge you. You judged me so i may now judge you in return. And now you try to criticise the Golden Rule when Jesus was referring to that rule repeated, i think it was 5 times, in the Old Testament such as in Exodus 22:21 and Exodus 23:9 where the example of comparison was the Pagan Polytheistic Egyptians. So no you don’t get to use weasel words to try and slime out of it. If you would not like for example a worshipper of Set with their homosexual religious practices to impose over you their religious morality then you may not impose your one over them. As for Christ i’ve been pointing out that you have lost your way and you haven’t been listening. So listen to the Pope! For he has made several important points about Christian morality having gone astray and the danger of Ideological Christianity and it seems that you are amongst those whose words those messages are for. You speak of hypocrisy when you suggested an OT instruction (of disputed Translation) should be applied to Transgender yet have you eaten Bacon? Prawns? Wear mixed-thread materials and any of the other Abominations Unto The Lord? You object to what you said was taking Mathew 19:12 out of context when your NT passage was in it’s context a lesson about not using the law to impose morality over others a lesson which you completely disregarded when i pointed out it was one of Christs instructions to us. If you are such a staunch defender of biblical morality tell me how many women have you warned of 1 Corinthians 11:5-6? I’m pretty sure that more women are breaking that then there are Transgender people who are born to Christian families but do you neglect all those in order to worry about a much smaller problem with much weaker scriptural certainty? As for wordly wisdom your foolishness comes from the heretical notion that the world is not of God. God is the creator, the creation, the world, is his 1st and untranslated message. Knowledge of that obvious cetainty is why Science was mainly built by Christians, many of them Priests. We will never know all of Gods creation, but at times Scripture seems in conflict with what we can learn of Creation. Such as when it was discovered the Earth goes around the sun not the other way around. After that there was only 3 possibilities. 1, the discovery was incorrect… but it was not 2, the scripture was false and so all of the religion was false 3, the scripture was misunderstood and needed to be re-understood. The church after years of shameful denial realised 3 was correct, when you think about it enough you will too. I haven’t been hypocritical because i pointed out that inability to conform to reciprocal ethics is the only justification for constraining the behaviours of psychopaths etcetera so deal with that. Where did i blame the abuse of Transgender people on religion? What i blamed FALSE Christians for was the hypocrisy. You mention the Irish remnant of the centuries of warfare between Catholic and Protestant.. which of course was mingled with centuries of conquering and resistance to occupation, hardly clear-cut as being purely religious conflict, yet in that there were many Christians denouncing the violence of their fellows even though they disagreed with the religious conclusions and political stance of those being attacked and it is the failure to do the same against the catastrophic rates of violence against Transgender people, especially children, that makes shameful hypocrites of so many who falsely claim to be followers of Christ. I didn’t just mean literally walking past, there has been generations of abuse and the inaction on that is shameful. You might want to go re-read Luke 10:29-37 And when you are done making excuses for your own sins and those of fellow lip-service Christians i can go into detail of how you have no way of knowing a person changing their sex is wrong as the bible doesn’t say so and point out to you that when you say they will be resurrected in their original sex you are just making that up because the bible doesn’t say so and i point out to you that medicine has shown that the first part of the body to form sex characeteristics is the brain so they get a woman’s brain first and a mans body second and we cannot know God’s plan for making that so so we sure can’t assume what way he resolves it at the resurrection. But before i explain those things to you read Luke and start acting like a genuine Christian and denounce the bullying, the harassment, the bashings and stabbings and murders and the use of the law to oppress. When you have managed that, when you have stood up in defence of the bullied teen at the heart of the article that spawned this conversation and decried the organisation abusing her for political and financial purposes even if you disagree with Transgender then and only then might i see some evidence you genuinely try to follow the path of Jesus who spent time with prostitutes lepers and those who collected money for the occupying Roman forces. Become like the good Samaritan and less like the Pharisees.

  7. I will make this quick Bayne as I have injured my hand but I never said brain injury would not ever cause a person to have behaviours that we consider to be wrong, anti social even. You are making an assumption that all pyschopaths became that way through brain injury. This is not the case. You also state that narcissism could be from nature or nurture. Well you admit then that it can be from birth. The fact is the brains of narcissists different to normal brains whether from birth or nurture if that is possible. So once again, if from birth, let’s support them in narcissistic behaviour. In terms of transgenders, ok, different brain from birth (same as psycopaths and narcissists) but you say cannot be treated successfully, etc. I will admit it would not be an easy one, a friend of mine is a psychologist and told me that same sex attraction is hard for gay people to overcome, but it is not impossible. In a Christian context, we think of eternity, not just living for the day. If a person wants to endure to the end in Christ, they can do that and they can remain chaste, pure and free from sin. It is a choice that the person has to make. For transgenders, yes a difficult issue but one that God will help them with if they want Him to. It may mean striving the rest of their lives, but if it brings them home to God, it will have been worth it. I have listened to gay men as a matter of fact, telling how they have chosen God, accepting it may mean celibacy for the rest of their lives. Gay and lesbians can do it because others have shown the way. It just doesn’t get much coverage because that is not what the gay activists want you to know. My friend the psychologist told me about a straight man he knows who is married to a lesbian. They have children but the physical side is difficult. Both the man and his wife accept the situation and also know it is temporary because once through this life, they will reach perfection in the eternities as the buffetings and temptations of Satan will no longer hinder them as they strive to become like God and follow Him. In terms of laws of nature Bayne, we are talking about the nature of human beings. We are not bugs or birds or spiders or whatever comparison you want to make. You accused me earlier of comparing apples with potatoes, or something like that. You are doing that on the question of nature. We do not have women eating their husbands as some spiders do. We are human beings and we have a nature of our own. The law of Nature for humans in a physical context is that a male and female become one, have children and perpetuate the human race. Changing one’s sex may be ok for a variety of life on the earth if that is it’s nature but that is not the law of nature in terms of humans. Your interpretation of the golden rule comes down to perspective as I have already said a few comments up. Apocryphal sources, google it’s there. may have been the book of Enoch, can’t remember off the top of my head, I think Josephus and maybe tacitus also had something to say but I will have top check it out again. So anyway, gays and lesbians will most likeley get what they are after but it will come at a heavy price. You think transgenders will not affect anyone? Not true. When you present alternatives to people as viable options, some will take it and will cause much suffering to those who love them. As I have said to you how many time, there is not scripture that says changing ones sex is ok. You have not produced one because there isn’t any but you don’t believe the scriptures anyway so there’;s not a lot of point discussing them. You don’t understand as a Christian so maybe you are an atheist just stirring things up. Anyway, my hand is sore, that’s enough for now.

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    • Mick i acknowledge evidence when evidence is presented, so show the evidence for your claims and we’ll see if it stacks up. But the ‘a friend told me’ stuff is just hearsay. The ex-gay industry is in tatters with reparative therapy labelled harmful and ineffective by the various peak international psychiatric organisations but that’s immaterial to a discussion of TRANSGENDER so stop all the assumptions that your arguments are all riddled with, those are just make-believe. The ‘best’ success rate at treating Transgender people with psychotherapy involved emotional torture, physical beatings of children and resulted in drug-addicts alcoholism and suicide. So stop playing make-believe with what you want the truth to be and instead address the actual evidence of efficacy of currently available treatments. As for nature now we have a case of “special pleading” where you claim nature on one hand then try using extremely different areas of nature like spiders to try and dismiss things when those animals closest to us in nature include the Bonobo! To claim that humans have a ‘special nature’ regarding sexuality and then have no biological evidence to show that is just Bunkum. There may be theological arguments you could make but that attempt at a nature one is bearing false witness! Finally as for the ‘suffering’ you mention is that like the suffering when a loved one decides to engage in a mixed-race marriage? Because that was an argument racists hiding amidst genuine christians made in the past.

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      • That’s your opinion Bayne, ok but we are human beings, not monkeys, apes or any other animal you choose. there are natural laws of nature that apply to us all in our different existences. The laws of nature for humans is different to the laws of nature of a bonobo (LOL) We are not chimps Bayne or haven’t you noticed. We are human beings, ok??????

      • Human beings are still Animals Mick because we have Animal cells, still Placentals Mick, still Mammals Mick, still Apes Mick though we are special those are the branches of nature that God made us a part of as genetics and anatomy makes undeniable. You have no evidence from any of the Natural Sciences which study Nature of the supposed special Natural Law you make claims of so you are either A, misinformed and parroting other peoples lies or B, using a Theological claim as the basis of your argument but using scientific terms to disguise it as a Scientific argument and thus lying or C, making up what you want to be true and lying by saying it is certainly true or D, knowingly lying about what you know not to be true. So that should help you work out which form of Bearing False Witness to confess to at Mass next Sunday. Once again though you have gotten yourself all messed up by trying to argue homosexuality/bisexuality when this conversation is about TRANSGENDER.

      • LOL….good one Bayne. It would seem finally that you are admitting you are not Christian. you are getting to the evolved from apes business. We are descended from Adam and Eve, Bayne. They were 2 people, a man and a woman. You are going down the theory of evolution (that is a theory isn’t it) path by linking us with apes from an ancestral perspective. The Bible tells us from whence we are are descended and it is not from apes. God told us what the laws of nature are as they apply to humans. Even in the garden of eden, Adam and Eve were husband and wife, they had been married. They had children after they were cast out from the Garden of Eden. Throughout the scriptures, things like homosexuality, lesbianism and going away from the ‘natural use’ to perverse variations. The laws of nature as they apply to human beings are written throughout the scriptures. You claim to have a knowledge of the scriptures, do I really need to show you where to find refences fromGod that tell us what the laws of nature for humans are???

      • If acknowledging evolution as part of God’s Creation makes one not a Christian then there’s been several Popes recently who are not Christian! Here’s a quote from Pope John Paul II from almost twenty years ago “In his encyclical Humani Generis, my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points…. Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.” The full text is here http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961022.HTM and again do note that the lesson of Galileo which i have already pointed out to you is mentioned. Also do note that in General Language the word Theory is equivalent to the Scientific term Hypothesis whereas in Scientific terms Theory means something an lot stronger so don’t fall into the semantic trap used by those who bear false witness for political gains in the USA trying to manipulate Christians for their own political gain.

  8. Blayne, your own words condemn you, I don’t have to say or prove anything. If you want to be delivered and set free that’s something else!

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience…….Mark Twain

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    • Tell me HOW they condemn me Gary. Because unless you show your actually stupid i won’t assume you are so Twain’s advice isn’t useful here yet.

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  9. While there has already been raised the problem of objecting to Transgender people using existing public amenities when gay and bisexual people already use them also there is the problem of Intersex people and public amenities the solution to which will have direct bearing on Transgender people and public amenities. If someone is born with a body neither fully male nor fully female, and while rare there’s enough for there to be a number in schools across the country so relevant to the discussion, which set of public amenities must these people use when they are neither male nor female but in some way both as made so in the womb by God?

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    • So Bayne you have no answer t the previous comments and returning to an old argument. Are you also saying my wifes 10 year old client was bashed to become a psychopath are you? No Bayne, it may be true in some cases but certainly not all as my wifes client proves. And you didn’t say anything about narcissists. Bayne, the place to learn about the scriptures is not from gay and lesbian sites. I will give you a response about what the scriptures mean.

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      • An old argument you have failed to address. The link between psychopaths and head injuries whether through violence, sporting injury, household accident etcetera is well established. You might find the link between acquired brain injury from sport and rates of domestic violence or imprisonment interesting, but it has exactly no bearing whatsoever on Transgender. The damage to the brain from severe bullying and emotional traumas has also been established and linked to the development of Psychopaths. Again i point out to you, even more plainly this time, that if a Transgender person follows Mathew 7:12 no harm will come to you and if you follow it with them no harm will come to them and they will still be acting as Transgender in the way you have been objecting to, if a psychopath follows it no harm will come to you and no harm to them but they will not be acting in the manner of a psychopath.

        As for Narcissism you have no valid point there either for despite the attempts of researchers over generations to use narcissism as an explanation for Transgender peoples existence the evidence does not bear it out. And while psychotherapy may heal a narcissist it does not heal a Transgender person. You compare apples to potatoes in your attempts to find excuses for bigotry when Jesus taught you otherwise. As for scripture remember that traditional interpretation of scripture can be wrong, and Jesus himself warned about that. If this were not so then the discovery that the earth circled the sun when scripture indicated the opposite would itself have been enough to disprove scripture. Instead as creation is the direct word of God and Scripture is the word of God translated and recorded by fallible men (it’s the Muslims who claim their holy book is dictated directly by god and without error) then when the two are in conflict the untranslated word of God trumps traditional interpretation of his translated-by-man and recorded-by-man word and like we had to with the disproof of heliocentrism with a page of maths and a simple telescope at such times we must return to looking again at Scripture to find the true correct interpretation. And where Scripture has been translated from language to language to language Man has put his biases and errors and vagueries into it and at times we have to delve back to make corrections. Do not put your own thoughts above the evidence of Gods own Creation or you put your idea of God above the real one, you put yourself above God!

      • Bayne scientists have found, quote,” psychopathy is a distinct neurodevelopmental brain disorder.”, and psychopaths who are characterized by a lack of empathy, had less grey matter in the areas of the brain important for understanding other peoples’ emotions. Funny, no mention of being bashed to cause injury in what I have read so far. So it seems that it is how they were born. As I said are you telling me my wifes 10 year old client was bashed to cause brain injury? He is a psychopath, his brain structure is that of a psychopath. He was born that way so in your logic, we should support him in being a psychopath and encourage his psychopathic behaviour. You have not yet mentioned about narcissists. Their brain structure is different. Your logic tell us we should support narcissicts in their behaviour. Are you saying we should? On that logic, your view fails. As for quoting scriptures Bayne, as I said, you do not understand Christianity so stop going to gay and lesbian sites to rebut the scriptures or twist them to mean what they don’t. I will explain the scriptures to you as I have time through the week. The question of intersex, I will cover that too but please Bayne, you obviously are not a Christian so don’t cherry pick and fail to present the scriptures as they are intended.

      • In terms of Narcissism I should say you have not addressed the brain structure, you overlooked that detail. I should also point out I have not used “narcissism as an explanation for Transgender peoples existence” as you have claimed I did. I really don’t know where you got that idea. You mention therapy for narcissists, yes but what does that have to do with the logic you have used. To say transgender people can’t change on one hand says that because a transgender has a different brain structure, mentally they can’t change so the problem seems to be a mental one because if it was not a mental one you are denying that a person has the power to change. If you are saying they can’t change it is either a mental problem or a disability. You have said that narcissist can change and they have a different brain structure. Why can’t transgenders? Some people with disabilities simply cannot change because of either physical or psychological reasons. I know because I deal with people who have disabilities. You have said transgenders have a different brain structure. That means that there is a brain abnormality in comparison to a person with a ‘normal’ brain, perhaps a brain abnormality from birth. And your scripture comments, as I and others have said, show you do not understand Christianity. You cherry pick scriptures when you need to take the scriptures as a whole to understand them and even then it takes a long time to study them and cross reference them with other scriptures to get the whole meaning. I doubt that you have done that. What you have done is basically cast doubt on the authenticity of the scriptures and then claimed your interpretation is the correct one. Interesting approach Bayne. So you are claiming to have correct interpretations of the scriptures after you have claimed there are many mistakes. So why then do you turn to the scriptures when you obviously do not believe them? So really whatever I say about the scriptures will have no meaning to you because you will discount my understanding because you don’t believe them anyway so really we are left with your logic Bayne about why we should support transgender behaviour and your logic fails the test. You want to single out transgenders and say it’s ok for them based on having a different brain structure from birth but not allow psychopaths and narcissists the same reason for their behaviour. Seems you are not treating psychopaths and narcissists with equality Bayne. With a little more research I’m sure I could find some other people who could use the same logic to explain their behaviour. To close I will say this about judging, which you and other supporters of transgenders, gay and lesbian people like to consistently use to try to shut Christians up. What we are doing is not judging the person, we are using the word of God to judge the behaviour. We are not saying that the gay or lesbian person is a bad person but what we are saying is that the behaviour is wrong, it is immoral. Believe it or not Bayne, our laws find their basis on the teachings in the Bible. The original seal of the United states which was not used was a 2 sided seal. One side was a picture of Hengist and Horsa (you can look that up if you are interested) the other side was a picture of the children of Israel going through the wilderness. The reason was that the founders of the US constitution knew that English common law came from the children of Israel, thus the Bible. As we continue to drift from the laws that were good for society, we are reaping the harvest. I’m sure you have no idea what I am talking about but many who read this will know exactly what I mean. But I leave you one reason of hope but a reason for the rest of us to be concerned. We all know that Jesus will come again. In Mathew 24:37 it says,”But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be”. Apocryphal writings reveal that same sex marriage was practiced in the days of Noah and was one of the reasons for the great flood. Gods patience and endurance of the great wickedness on the earth went past the point He would tolerate. then the earth was baptised by water. You think that we are opposed to same sex marriage and various perversions just because the Bible says it’s wrong. Another reason you will not know is that we are trying to make sure His truth reaches as many of His children as possible to make sure as many of His children return to Him as is possible. Those who indulge in behaviours that are against the laws of nature and the laws of God are going against His desire which is for as many of His children as is possible, to comeback to Him. It is not a sin to have gay or lesbian feelings. It is a sin to act on them in the same way it is a sin for me to fornicate. Those perverse behaviours can stop a person from having an eternal existence with God. In terms of transgenders, they are a different case to gays and lesbians in my opinion. I believe it is a mental illness. You don’t believe it but to me, mental illness in terms of the Gospel is kind. I don’t believ it is correct for people to change their sex. In the eternities they will be resurrected in the sex they were born as. So their change is a temporary one. I will write more about this as I am out of time. The reason of mental illness is being compassionate and loving rather than encouraging a behaviour that is temporary and may lead a person to greater sin. None of us are born perfect, but one day we can be. The choice is up to us whether we follow God and Jesus or go the worldly way and just capitulate and do what the world says. Until next time Bayne.

      • Weird then that it took me 10 seconds to find this example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1737651/pdf/v071p00720.pdf and do note that i listed OTHER methods of acquiring brain injury as well as bashing (such as emotional abuse being known to cause physical brain damage). As for my argument as Psychopathic and some Narcissistic behaviours (and could you show where Narcissim is shown to be from birth? All i’ve managed to find so far is a tendency to run in families which could be as much nurture as nature but present your evidence please as i should evaluate it it on it’s merits) harm others and Transgender ones do not and can be treated by psychotherapy and yet Transgender people that method is damaging instead of helpful then sorry but the comparison still cannot be made. Transgender peoples behaviour falls INSIDE whats ok via Reciprocal Ethics, i.e. Jesus’s Do Unto Others rule whereas Psychopathic and Narcissistic behaviours frequently are OUTSIDE that oft-called Golden rule. Of course if you are attempting to separate the arguments and have a purely scientific/philosophical argument with Jesus not included for a moment, which at times is necessary as we need to have rules that govern a society of people belonging to multiple religious faiths not just Christians then whats crucial is that a Transgender person behaves within the bounds of their own Human Rights… which are based on Reciprocal Ethics and the teachings of Christ anyway but there we go) and as there have been myriad religions that include Transgender people as having special spiritual place (Across Polynesia, throughout the native Americas North Central and South, the Animists of Asia from Siberia and Sami all the way down to Indonesia.. oh look i just looped the globe! Then across amongst branches of the Daoists and Buddhists, the Sufi of the Islamic world, traditional Hinduism and back over to Europe via the pagan Cybelline faith) there are also the equal Religious Rights of people of every faith must be taken into account. Furthermore in order to protect the equal rights of others as we have a capacity to treat psychopaths and narcissists then we may, BUT as Transgender people infringe no-one else’s rights with Transgender behaviour then the secular non-religious argument stands that we may not persecute nor discriminate nor oppress them. Which is just in line with the passages from Exodus and Mathew i’ve cited on the Christian obligations. So Scientifically, Ethically, Secularly, Ecumenically and abiding by the instructions of Jesus the conclusion is all the same! As for what i ‘obviously am’ that’s again a Classical Logical Fallacy (look up the No True Scotsman’ fallacy) so thats another deceptive false-argument to tab up to the list of disingenuous attempts to dismiss my points and excuse breaking Jesus’s teachings about how to treat others.

      • The reason i say that Transgender people cannot be successfully treated by psychotherapy unlike Narcissists and Psychopaths is that this is what generations of scientific study and attempts to do what you oft presume to be possible has shown to be true. As for the apocrypha you mention could you cite that please as i haven’t heard that before even though it has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion in the slightest i am curious. Mind you, there’s plenty of apocryphal stuff claimed by Gnostics and things left out fo the canon so if you start citing Apocrypha as evidence we have to give equal weight to the gnostic gospels and the dead sea scrolls stuff all manner of heresies amongst the early church the claims that god had a goddess wife and all that jazz and i’m not sure that will help the theological side of the argument. I did once encounter a claim that Abraham and his wife were originally said to be Intersex, neither man nor woman but both which while a curiosity like other apocryphal things is poor basis for an argument. You also make the GRAVE mistake of discussing the ‘laws of nature’ but nature is full of bisexuality and situational homosexuality so don’t even bother that line of argument till you’ve done some research on it and you apparently will be very shocked indeed. As for the laws of man we live in a world where we must get along with people of other faiths and that means having laws which treat everyone equally and fairly and not imposing our faith on others… and Jesus himself said not to use the law that way let alone that Do Unto Others requires us not to impose our religious morality on the Muslim or Buddhist because we would not want their moral rules imposed on us! Jesus told us this was the 2nd most important rule for a reason and yet it seems so many Christians skip it altogether. So many lip-service Christians who do not even try to abide by his teachings and instead act as he said not to.

  10. I just happened to come across this discussion. I don’t know why you all are arguing with the type of person Bayne is, He does not have a personal relationship with Jesus as proven by his comments. He has a serious spiritual problem! He has a spirit of deception controlling his mind, along with a number of other ones. You are just arguing with demons and wasting your time!

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    • I suggest if you are going to make personal accusations that you prove them rather than using what has been called for thousands of years an Ad Hominem logical fallacy which is used to try to dismiss a persons argument instead of refuting it and as a fallacious argument it’s a form of bearing false witness and thus breaking one of the ten commandments. So maybe you, commandment breaker, should deal with the problems with your own spiritual relationship with Gods commandments first, then get back here and prove your accusations now you’ve made them and also prove me wrong on the subject at hand.

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      • And i will expound the scriptures to you Bayne and show you how you are mistaken.

      • And i am waiting to see if this is idle boasting or if you actually can. And where i am shown unequivocally to be mistaken I will have the integrity to admit and acknowledge it.

      • I have been replying to your other essays, I’ll have to read what you wrote above and get back to you although I’m sure I’ve covered a lot of it below.

      • Oh and stop judging Gary, you keep telling Christians they should not judge, how about you set the example 🙂

    • Even the devil quotes scripture…………..Matthew 4:4

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      • And similar charges were leveled at the Christians who opposed slavery, the Christians who opposed racism, the Christians who fought for the right to mixed-race marriage, the Christians who fought for the equality of women, the Christians who opposed the execution of heretics and Jews and witches and conversion by the sword and garrote… so if i be accused when arguments against my points fail to be made like they were accused in the past I’ll take that as a badge of honor thankyou.

        Now that you’ve had your chance to show a lack of integrity and virtue by trying to attack the person instead of their argument why don’t you put the childish bully tactics away and either show that i am wrong or find that i am right.

      • I cannot take you seriously bayne, you try to interpret scripture yourself with no Authority to do so, and no matter how you try to use scripture to justify transgender lifestyle choice it will be all in vain. Jesus will always be merciful to those who repent.

      • You can deny the evidence science reveals all you like but the natural world is the untranslated direct word of God, his creation, and in refusing to face the truth not only are you being as foolish as those pharisee-like of the past who claimed authority when they said the sun revolved around the earth but worse you would spread wickedness in the words spoken and actions taken from this ignorance.

  11. Hi Blayne, I have thought about the things you have written and just have one more question for you before I respond to you in full. If I understand you correctly, in terms of transgender people what you are saying is that because the brain structure of transgender people is different to a normal situation where, for example, a man’s brain is in a man’s skull, that we should accept these people as transgender? In other words, are you saying that because a female brain (as you are claiming using apparently medical proof of that) is in a man’s skull, we should accept transgender people and make every allowance for them in society? Is that the basis for your opinion?

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    • Well if they are biologically transgender then we should accept them as actually being transgender. Asking them whether in that proviso we should accept them as such is like saying ‘if their leg has been amputated by doctors after a car accident should we accept them as amputees?’ If they had an amputation we’d acknowledge they were amputees, so if they are biologically transgender then they are transgender, that’s just plain honesty. As for making allowances in society Jesus had plenty to say on what a Christians role in this is. He didn’t put a list of exceptions when he said “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” or “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”” And if you followed that then you would make every allowance for the least worthy Transgender person that you yourself would want in life. And if you found a Transgender person ever mistreated you (even though they are the ones most often mistreated and rarely ever the mistreat-er) or for that matter found their presence somehow intrinsically offensive well then you would recall Jesus told you “And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.” As for non-christians and Transgender well for them there are secular ethics and human rights which also makes legitimate transgender peoples right to live as full citizens and benefit from public amenities and the rule of fair law. But that is unimportant for Christians following the teachings of Christ because his teachings already encompass those things (after all, what is the basis of human rights but the acceptance of the teaching Do Unto Others?) and Christs words do not allow for discrimination nor bigotry nor perpetrating injustice nor persecution against anyone for any reason despite the many who profess to follow him failing on each of those.

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      • I will address the transgender brain issue shortly but when you comment on Christian things, I’m afraid you don’t understand Christianity and Christs teachings. We have the commandments and we have an idea of what God expects of us. There are things you turn a blind eye to and things you fight for. Didn’t Jesus throw the money changers out of the temple? The money changers were defiling the temple, there were important principles at stake. Jesus didn’t just say, hey that’s cool, just clean up when you’re done, He made a statement that their behaviour was wrong. At that time, the moneychangers may have thought it was fine to do what they were doing. It took Jesus to say no, that is wrong. Let’s look at what you said, ‘do unto others, what you would have them do unto you”. In a Gospel sense, we are trying to serve the one who is our Father in Heaven. If I was doing something wrong that could thwart my attempts at serving my Father in Heaven, I would want to know. Some people don’t want to know, but I would want to know. If I had transgender feelings and I loved God and wanted to be with Him one day, I would want to know how that affected me being with my Father again. From a worldly point of view, I can understand the view you take. But from a Gospel point of view, with something that affects the whole of society, we have a right and a responsibility to speak up just as Jesus did. Is loving your neighbour letting them do something that may stop them from entering the Kingdom of Heaven, or is telling them, hey this is wrong loving your neighbour and helping them to be with God? Loving your neighbour is all about perspective. A Christian perspective says loving your neighbour is helping them reach their eternal potential. Worldly perspective says do whatever you want, it is ok, don’t worry about God, If that’s how you feel, do it. Worldly perspective does not take into account God, a Gospel perspective does. The matter of “smiting the other cheek” is not as simplistic as you make out, otherwise in times of war we would just sit back and let the enemy kill us. I get the feeling that although you throw a scripture here and there that you are not a Christian. Maybe you are but you don’t come across that way. You seem to think Christians should just play dead and let the world take it’s course with us us saying a word. We have a right and a responsibility to stand up for God. That’s enough for now, I will write about the brain structure thing next becuase as you say,”if they are biologically transgender then we should accept them as actually being transgender”. I just wanted to be clear on your reasoning for your support of transgenders because I have found some things you might like to consider. Until next time, Mick

      • Now Bayne, the whole reasoning for you supporting transgender people in their quest to change gender and live the life they want to is that, in essence, they were born that way. You have said a male transgender has the brain structure of a female and backed that assertion up by pointing to medical research. Now let’s say for argument sake that I accept that. Say that I accept they were born with the brain structure of a woman and that is why they act that way. Now the question is, should I go along with that and support that person in that choice to change gender or into whatever that person wants to become? What this must mean then is that if a person has a different type of brain structure in comparison to ‘normal’ brain structures, then that explains their behaviour and it proves that they were born that way. It also means that they too should receive all the support that you would like to see for transgender people. That is equality, that is fairness based on the premise that you would like me, for example, to support transgender people in their choices. I thought about the comments you have made and did some research to see what other people have differences in brain structure in comparison to ‘normal’ brain structures. There are two examples I would like to share with you of people with different brain structures and maybe you can tell me if you can support these people in their choices. Keep in mind that I am basing this on the principles that you use to expect everyone else to support your stand on transgender people, namely brain structure that shows they were born that way. I found two types of people with different brain structure which explains their actions and they were born that way. First is psychopaths. Second is narcissists. The oxford dictionary describes psychopaths as, “a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behaviour.”. Some famous ones were Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy. My wife works in the social services and worked with a 10 year old boy that was diagnosed as a psychopath at that young age. The Oxford dictionary describes a narcissist as, “excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one’s physical appearance.
        Psychology extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one’s own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
        Psychoanalysis self-centredness arising from failure to distinguish the self from external objects, either in very young babies or as a feature of mental disorder. There are some well known people who it is suspected are narcissistic. Think of Jim Jones, Alec Baldwin, Ike Turner, Sharon Stone, Kanye west, Saddam Hussein. So here we have two other groups of people, born that way; a different brain structure which explains their behaviour. Now based on your logic as to why we should all embrace transgenders and support them, should we on exactly the same basis, now accept psychopaths and narcissists and assist them in their behaviour? You may say the examples are extreme, maybe so but they are in the same category as transgenders using your logic and reasoning. I am not saying in any way that transgenders are bad people, as I have told you, I believe they are mentally ill. However based on your logic, Bayne, we should support the exploits and behaviours of psychopaths and narcissists.

      • Do remember that approximately 1 in 30 people are psychopaths so murderous psychopaths are rare even amongst psychopaths. Psychopaths brain differences are also caused by brain-injury and/or severe trauma rather than being born that way.

        Next you forget something VASTLY more important, that if a psychopath commits an act of murder they have overstepped their autonomy over themselves and infringed on someone else’s. You like examples to help understand things? i’ll give you one. What’s the core key differences between these three things? 1. A person who practices boxing against a punching bag. 2. A person who boxes other boxers in a boxing ring. 3. A person who punches someone who is unsuspecting and unprovoking in the face in the street.

        When you understand THAT then you may finally understand several different pieces of scripture from Exodus 23:9 to Mathew 7:12 as well as the Enlightenment (largey built on Jesus’s teachings!) and how the Lord and Christ instructed his people to get along with and live with people of other faiths.

      • Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple, but then Jesus said HE was above the law, he also said WE were to submit to it even when it is unjust. Jesus didn’t preach “blessed are the revolutionaries fighting Ceaser’s wicked oppression and occupation of Israel” did he, instead he hung out with the people who took Israeli peoples money and gave it to Ceaser the ‘tax collectors’ who we must remember were not collecting ordinary taxes for an ordinary government but were the equivalent of people taking money off the French and handing it to the Nazi’s in Nazi-occupied France! The people were expecting a warrior-king for their Messiah to liberate them in battle, that’s not what they got did they. It’s not enough to tell me that i don’t understand scripture SHOW where it shows me wrong, cause i think i understand it pretty well and the weasel-word excuses many lip-service christians use in order to justify acting diametrically opposite to Christs teachings. If you can’t handle Jesus’s pacifist teachings then you might be in the wrong religion.

      • From what you wrote it is obvious you don’t understand, I will reply and show you and explain to you what he meant. Your comment about the money changers and rendering to Caesar what is Caesars show a complete lack of understanding. And the warrior King, you really don’t understand because the Old Testament talks a messiah who would come once and who would come again as a Saviour. So when I say you don’t understand the Bible, it is true but since you need to learn what the scriptures really mean, I will take some time to write a reply to you so you get a clearer understanding of the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

      • I wait to see where my Marist Brothers teachers were mistaken in general scripture. Do, please show me where they were mistaken.

      • Have shown you many areas below

  12. Bayne, you say,”Why would it be bad to have a man in a women’s bathroom?” Are you serious?????? You cannot be serious!!! ou obviously disagree, that is fine, we are all entitled to our opinion but my opinion is that men and women should not use the same toilets and public amenities. That is societies standard and it is the right one. You may be right that transgenders in the toilets are less dangerous than homosexuals and lesbians. Interesting that you point out that there is a danger from them. You say that the person at my work is allowed to use the female toilets. Well maybe the one at my work has respect for our workmates. It’s a pity that attitude is not shared by the transgender community. They simply want to force this issue on us and force us to accept it as ‘normal’. It is not normal Bayne. It’s funny, the word normal. It means different things to different people. It may be normal to find a homosexual person or a lesbian person, transgender whatever in society. But we are human beings and what is normal for human beings is that men are men and women are women, men and women become a couple, create children and ensure the perpetuity of the human race. That is normal and the nature of human beings. A homosexual may feel it is normal for them to feel that way but it is not normal for society because society is built on families. Homosexuals cannot have children, lesbians cannot have children, without external help such as adoption, ivf or other ways that involve using other people to service their desires. The homosexual, lesbian and whatever variation you come up ‘lifestyle’ with is anti family. You ma have a homosexual couple that adopt a child. A child needs a father and a mother. You can come up with whatever stud you want to support gay couples raising children but studies have a way of pushing an agenda. What about the work of Alfred Kinsey? Studies accepted by the mainstream psychiatric community but research built on lies and faulty research. The family structure given to us by God is that marriage is between a man and a woman, children are born to a man and a woman. Some families don’t do too good but and have problems but the best wa to bring up a child is a man and a woman. That’s what God has said and who are we to argue with the one who is perfect and has all knowledge. Sorry, I’ve gone off subject but whether you agree or not, and obviously you don’t, men and women should not share the same toilets and the same goes for transgenders.We won’t agree so we’ll leave that issue there, fair enough?

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    • Yes i am serious in that it was a QUESTION not a rhetorical statement. The WHY of the answer being critical as to what then follows as right and wrong. If the standard serves no purpose or worse does more harm than good then the standard is wrong. If the standard tries to serve a purpose but fails at that purpose then the standard needs adjusting till it succeeds. Do notice the second option rather than just assume it’s the traditional way or no way at all that are the only options. As for the person at your work, maybe rather than respect what they have is fear. Fear that they cannot simply use public amenities in peace without suffering on account of other peoples inability to follow Mathew 7:12 And as for the ‘rest of the transgender community’ they still show more respect to non-transgender people than non-transgender people show them (with all the bashings and rape and discrimination they face that goes uncondemned and brushed under the carpet) so you don’t get to judge them for the speck in their eyes till the plank is gone from the non-transgender population, to paraphrase Christ. As for normal you have misconstrued the word AVERAGE for normal. With more than 1 in every 100 children born Intersex it’s surprisingly common for people to be born neither man nor woman after all. As for Homosexuality you should read up on the common phenomena of bisexuality and homosexuality in the various animal kingdoms as it will challenge your notion of normal too. As our society was built until recent decades not on isolated nuclear families but large families usually in tribal settings having 1 in every so many children being non-reproductive but helping in the hunt, household chores, and farming was actually of benefit to the whole group while reducing the speed of over-population. In such families the occasional gay person was a boon not a harm. And many of the greatest longest-lasting empires and civilizations on earth had plenty of homosexuality and it didn’t stop them with Rome, Ancient Egypt, Classical Greece enduring thousands upon thousands of years , allowing bisexuality and homosexuality didn’t stop families from existing and prospering for longer than the time between the birth of Christ and our conversation. But we aren’t talking about gay people are we. And no, unless you can show WHY there needs to be a separation of the sexes in bathrooms and show WHY that should apply to Transgender people in one way and not the other way then no, it doesn’t get left there any more than someone claiming that racial segregation was right or slavery was right should have their opinion automatically accepted as right unquestioned. A vulnerable teen has been slandered and bullied around the world on this matter so you need to step up to the plate and justify the WHY, the REASON your opinion on the bathroom issue is correct and appropriate to impose on all society and if you cannot then if you have any integrity you need to change your stance to one that can be shown to be right.

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      • Bayne, the fact that you can’t see why men should use different toilets or bathrooms than women say a lot about your view. I’m not sure if you are serious or just a troll. So that you know a bit about why, one big reason is safety. A man in a toilet with teenage girls for example, is asking for trouble but I am sure you know that. You did mention about rapes in toilets I think, then you know there are dangers. The simple fact is that males and females should use different public facilities. I can’t believe you need someone to point that out to you. The rest of your comment shows a severe misunderstanding of Christianity and the meaning of scriptures. Incidentally Bayne, Wikipedia is not the best source of information. I suggest you dig a bit deeper. The simple thing is Bayne that the scriptures preach against homosexuality, lesbianism, etc. It is very clear. Now men, transgender or not, should not be in public toilets with women or girls. Young girls should not have to confront the issue of transgenders at young ages or even as young teenagers. There is a lot wrong with transgenders in female toilets, especially those who have not had a sex change, being in toilets with girls. We differ on this, we’ll leave it at that. But my comment below, comment on that if you want to. Your logic leaves open the door for other things you probably haven’t thought of.

      • Of course i’m not a troll, nor am i failing to see anything. When dealing with Moral Reasoning the WHY is the MOST important part of a discussion. Get the WHY right and you have Principles that resolve multiple problems, get the WHY wrong and you commit injustice. So asking the WHY is the responsible thing to do and if you couldn’t get that without my having to explain it so bluntly then you really REALLY need to do a LOT more thinking on EVERY Moral Issue.

        Now clearly there’s something VERY wrong with your own reasoning. Your logic seems to assume because Transgender people have male bodies that they must be as likely to rape as cisgender (non-transgender, cis being the existing but less-used opposite of the prefix trans) males are when in fact all available evidence shows this is not the case and you blithely disregard the FACT that Gays and Lesbians are already in same-sex bathrooms who are much more of a risk than Transgender people are, so you say that a Lamb is more dangerous to them than the Lions they already live with? And where gender-neutral facilities aren’t present (in many many schools there are none) you would put the Transgender kids, kids amongst the most vulnerable group to assault and sexual assault in the world, in with the cisgender boys who are the most frequently perpetrators of assault and sexual assault? And you think you have engaged in Moral Reasoning and know what’s right in this do you? Your reasoning hasn’t even BEGUN to run through the consequences and proportional risks of the matter. As for teenagers and Transgender at the MINIMUM your average school has at least one kid born Transgender in it and so they know Transgender kids already even if they don’t know those kids are Transgender and they know Transgender parents of kids at their school too (bare minimum estimates are of 1 in 500 people are surgery-path transsexuals and the Australian study Writing Themselves In 3 found 3% of Australian Schoolkids identified other than male or female and so were classed as Gender Questioning in the study, these kids also suffered the most bullying in quantity and severity) . Don’t get hung up on wiki, i’ve cited everything from ancient sources (Herodotus and Ovid) to recent studies (such as LaTrobe University’s 12 year study report Writing Themselves In 3) so i’m confidant i’ve dug deeper than you have on all these matters, and if you intend to be a decent person you need to engage in a whole lot more deeper thought and deal with a lot more evidence rather than conjectured assumption otherwise you will find the road to hell is lined with good intentions and great wrongs done in the name of ignorantly presumed righteousness.

  13. Also the difference between transgenders and gays using toilets is that gays are males and lesbians are female and should use the apporopriate toilet. At my work there is a transgender man who dresses as a woman and has boobs. He does not use the male toilet and does not use the female toilet. He, because he is a he and always will be no matter what changes he may make, uses the toilet that anyone can use. That is the answer Bayne. Separate facilities. As far as the rest of the world, as my parents used to say, if the rest of the world jumped off a cliff, would you? The question of the suicidal student, I will respond to that because I am out of time right now.

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    • You really haven’t thought this through have you. What REASON is there for separating the sexes in amenities if it is not relating to sexuality and safety? Why would it be bad to have a man in a women’s bathroom? Because the assumption is that that man is sexually interested in and a threat to the women. Yet what about a lesbian in the women’s bathroom, in the shower at the gym? You share public amenities with Bisexual and Homosexual people all the time. There was a case a year or two ago of a woman in Australia who RAPED another woman in a pub bathroom. So then isn’t a Lesbian in a women’s bathroom already more of a problem than a Transgender person? Despite any assumptions you might make Transgender people are not as great a threat in bathrooms as lesbians are (this fact so galled some anti-transgender groups in the USA who were trying to claim Transgender people in women’s bathrooms were a danger that they FAKED a Transgender harassing women case!). There is no greater risk to privacy, no greater risk of being ogled, no greater risk of sexual assault from a Transgender person than there already is from Bisexual and Homosexual people in same-sex amenities in fact the risk of all these is lower. Is there a danger in Australian amenities? YES! Because children and adults have been assaulted and sexually assaulted in Australian amenities! But not by Transgender people! In Australia that person at your work is allowed to use the women’s bathroom. That’s been the law for years and years! Yet the people who have done the assaulting in Australian public amenities have not been the Transgender people! Should we make these amenities safer? Yes, and we could do that by making them all single-user amenities with CCTV directly outside the door to ensure they are safe, and if they are single-user-only then it doesn’t matter who uses them anyway. So if that safety matters to you by all means call for single-user only amenities for EVERYONE. But Transgender people are no reason for the need for that, instead it is the violence and sexual violence of the non-transgender people that means we should abolish multi-user amenities. And there isn’t any other valid reason for having sex-segregated amenities.

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      • I have replied below to your comments

  14. Just a couple of questions for you Bayne before I respond to you. Do you believe in God? Are you a Christian? Is everything that Jesus said and did written in the book we call the Bible? If a law was given in the Old Testament, does that mean that it was no longer valid after Jesus came? If there was no explicit reference to eunuchs dressing as females in the New Testament, could that mean there weren’t any? Especially considering that at the time the jews, who considered themselves God’s chosen race and were living under the law of Moses, knew that men dressing as women was wrong and same sex relationships were wrong? Even to the point of ejecting them from their society? Do you understand that same sex relationships in the Old Testament and the New Testament were wrong? Do you understand that eunuchs were males? Do you understand that they were castrated males?

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    • My faith beliefs are actually unimportant, because if i am a believer but am wrong about something other than that belief am i not still wrong about it? And if a non-believer but am right about something other than that belief am i not still right about it? If you were to dismiss my words because i was a non-believer, or accept them because i was a believer, regardless of whether my words were right or wrong you would be doing yourself and God an injustice. As for Old Testament rules do you eat Bacon? Do you eat Prawns? Oysters? Are disabled people allowed inside your Church? Check your socks and see if they are cotton and wool blended together, for all these things are Abominations unto the Lord in the old testament.

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      • No Bayne because I would write my remarks to you based on what your beliefs are. If you are a non Christian and I talk to you expecting you to agree with me because I am a Christian, it may not happen because we don’t have some common ground in terms of being Christians. If I respond to you as a non Christian, then I would speak differently as you may not understand the concept or reasoning of a Christian. That is why I asked. You don’t think it’s important? There are things I could explain to you in a Christian way but without fully understanding where I am coming from, you may easily dismiss what Is I say.

        As for the Old testament, some parts of the law of Moses were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, some remained evenbafter Christ came. Not everything Jesus did or said is written in the Bible. People sometimes say Jesus did not speak against homosexuality. He actually did, but he did it in 2 was. First he spoke against fornication which is sexual relations outside of marriage. Second, the apostles spoke against it. But you may say the did but where did Jesus? The answer is this. Where do you think the Apostles got their instruction from? Can you answer that one Bayne?

      • Mick you may speak to me as if i were a christian or as if i were a non-christian and i will understand you regardless, so it matters not in this discussion. As for the old testament we are not discussing Homosexuality but Transgender, so that matters not. For all the things Christ did say that was recorded we may discuss, what the apostles said themselves that was recorded we may discuss and we could presume them infallible and wholly understanding of the teachings of Christ or not. We may discuss errors or interpretations of translation too and the politics and sinfulness of men that influenced many of those translations. But what Christ or the apostles said that was not recorded could be anything at all! And so we could not know and any presumption would be as valid as any other presumption.

      • It does matter if you believe in God or not Bayne. I have spent a lot of time in the past sharing the Gospel with people. If I expect someone to have the same knowledge as me I will confuse them. Maybe that is part of the problem we have in communicating so when you say it doesn’t matter Bayne, it actually does.

      • No Mick. I have quoted scripture with you aplenty already, we may differ in interpretation at points and many of those are ones i’m well prepared to argue upon especially as Christendom has alas had a bad track record of justifying wickedness with scripture interpreted in ways to allow them to remain wicked even while blind to their own wickedness. But also vitally this is both a Christian and a Non-Christian matter! For we need rules of right and wrong on this matter not just amongst Christians of one denomination but all denominations and not just amongst Christians but amongst people of all faiths and none.

  15. And now it’s reported that due to the bullying of the so-called pacific justice institute singling out one shy teenager to use as an example to raise money and fund their political campaign that poor child is now suicidal. Where is the Christian Compassion towards that child? Lost and forgot by the blindness of what the Pope recently called Ideological Christianity!

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    • Will get back to you, time is against me right now but will hopefully by Monday

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      • An organisation singles out a single child in a single school (the only Transgender kid in that school so them not using her name is no excuse) in order to drum up money for their political cause. They use the term ‘sexual harassment’ to describe the shy innocent child as a predator without clarifying till later that they mean the words differently to the legal and general use misinforming everyone and slandering the innocent child for political purposes. Christian media groups all around the world repeat the accusations without checking the facts spreading the false perception of Transgender people and this one kid in particular as a sexual predator. Jesus said more against being wealthy than even the most anti-transgender interpretation of the bible yet the anti-transgender focus of so many so-called christians cannot be excused by genuine religious concerns. Jesus said “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” but instead an innocent teen, a vulnerable child from a group that whether fitting christian doctrine or not face persecution at a level perhaps worse than ANY other group of people in the world today is attacked so a political group can try and impose their interpretation of scripture over everyone else regardless of the faith of everyone else. And now that child, like between 30% and 54% (depending on region, Australia is in the 40% range) of Transgender people has been driven to attempt suicide. Genuine Christians would surely have been speaking out against the 36% of Transgender people in Queensland who have been assaulted with a weapon and the 46% who have been bashed well before they spoke as to whether or not being Transgender fitted into Christian doctrine. The extreme bullying suffered by these children in school uncovered by the study Writing Themselves In 3 by LaTrobe University would be the first concern.
        I doubt Jesus would recognise any sign of his teachings in this. It is as if many have heard his words and what he said for them to do they have chosen to do the opposite. He said not to judge, they judge. He said he who is without sin throw the first stone, yet they have sinned and they throw stones. He said not to use the law on each other, yet they try to control the law to suit them. He said to do unto others what they would want others to do unto them, yet would they want to face any of what they have done or condoned? People unable to use ANY amenities, forced out of school, forced out of jobs, thrown onto the street? 1/3rd to 1/2 of Cisgender (the opposite of Transgender, Cis being the latin opposite to the prefix Trans) bullied by discrimination into attempting suicide? Would they want 1/3rd of Cisgender people attacked with a weapon? Nearly 1/2 bashed? 64% (USA figure) be sexually assaulted (and that’s by the standard definition of the term!)? And yet the very existence of Transgender people is treated as being of greater concern then all the wickedness done against them. Christian doctrine disagrees with Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Daoists etcetera but those are not used by real followers of Christ to discriminate against or condemn or ostracize those. Jesus spoke that the wealthy should give their worldly goods away and that it was impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven but I’m not hearing people speaking to the rich the way they speak to the already persecuted Transgender people. Even IF the Bible were clear on Transgender the persecution of them would still be unjustifiable and unchristian. The treatment of this child in particular is wicked and unrighteous and unchristian and sinful.

  16. Bayne you keep going back to genetics as a way to excuse actions. Transgender is against the will of God. You claim that transgenders existed in Christs time. I don’t know, but even if they did, jesus did not condone it. Can you show where he did? Basic Christian charity does not mean condoning behaviour that is in opposition to Gods will.

    Apparently there are sex addicts. maybe they have a sex addict gene too. If they do, does that excuse them commiting fornication all over the place?

    As I think I said, the first great commandment is to love God. If a person with or without a transgender gene or a sex addict gene or whatever type of gene they have puts God first in their life and commit themselves to Him above anything else, though they may struggle, they will be victorious. I know of gay men who have done that and God is first in their lives despite their difficulties. They don’t look for excuses but accept truth and live it

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    • Bayne I was thinking about your whole genetics excuse for transgenders and how you dismissed the dog example I gave, just to illustrate a point. Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying that if, for example, doctors found a gene that was responsible for a person believing that they are a dog as with transgenders, that we should help that person become a dog? Should we make that person as physically close to a dog that we can? Should we allow them to eat from a bowl on the floor at restaurants, because they have that gene? How far do we go in accepting that some people believe they are dogs because of a gene? Should just accept it and restructure society to accommodate them or should we just say, this person has a mental illness, how can we help them?

      Should we allow any gene to dictate what is acceptable in society?

      What is your answer Bayne?

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      • You are wrong so i’ll explain where. Firstly this is not just about the gene discovery, it’s about brain STRUCTURE. Where there are differences in the physical structure of men and womens brains Transgender people have differences that can be seen and have been seen in Autopsies of their brain and in FMRI scans. The differences may be effected by the gene (families with the gene have more Transgender people in them) but it is a fact that the Brain is different in it’s structure. When a person is autopsied and the doctors find an ACTUAL dog brain or a half-dog brain in a human skull then and only then will your analogy have any merit whatsoever. God did not make dog-brained people but we do know he did make Transgender people’s different brains.

        And again i tell you that for more than 80 years they TRIED treating transgender people as if it were a mental illness but where they could help people with a mental illness they could not help Transgender people because it is NOT a mental illness and the many many many attempts to try as if it were over generations resulted in causing them more harm.

        And while we are at it, if you think it so absurd or distressful to deal with the minor alterations in society needed to treat these neighbours with the love Jesus commanded you to, do remember your Galatians 3:28 “28 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

      • Bayne, Bayne, Bayne, you do realise I used an example don’t you? about the dog? It could be something else but you are using physical things to excuse wrongful behaviour. You misinterpret Galatians 3:28. Verse 27 says,”For as many of you as have been abaptized into Christ have put on Christ.”. So verse 28 was talking about those who had been baptised and taken the name of Christ upon themselves. It was not about the general population, only those who were one in Christ.

        As far as treating or helping them, 80 years ago medical knowledge was limited. In the future it will far exceed todays. But the answer is not to give in. It is a mental illness bayne.

      • Your ‘example’ was not analogous. It does not work, but it does show that you are still in denial over the reality of what science has uncovered. There are no people with half-dog half-human brains so there is no analogy. Someone who THINKS they are a dog does not have a dogs brain just a delusion. But a Transgender person DOES have a brain that is akin to the brain of the sex they feel themselves to be. It’s a confirmation of their feelings found first under the anatomist’s knife on their way to the grave and has since been seen in the living via FMRI scans and you remain in denial of this and so all your thoughts on the matter are without reason or meaning because you have your head in the sand to avoid seeing the truth revealed in that evidence.

        It is not a mental illness. It has been proven to not be a mental illness. It has been removed from the mental illness classification because it has been proved to not be a mental illness. To call it a mental illness is to state that which is false. And just like the sun was shown not to orbit the earth but the other way around so too has this been shown to be so. Cope with it the way that honest commandment-abiding Christians coped with the end of heliocentrism and the truths of astronomy.

    • I didn’t say genetics excused actions. But the existence of Transgender brain structure shows that they actually are what they say they are, different inside than out and born that way. So made that way by God.

      Yes Transgender people existed in the time of Christ. We know from Ovid and Hyppocrates (the ancient Greek father of medicine whose oath all doctors still swear) that for example amongst the Scythian people as well as castration they would drink the urine of pregnant mares as a source of the female hormone, that’s why it’s called Premarin as it’s still to this day obtained from that source for hormone-replacement therapy and used in the anti-fertility pill. The tool used for self-castration amongst them in the Roman Empire has been found even as far as Britain. The Babylonians had them too. All around Israel including peoples that traded with Israel and the Romans who ruled Israel and amongst the Greeks, and several of the disciples were Greek, this occurred was known of.

      The main word (because of course there were many in lots of different languages) used in biblical times to refer to them was Eunuch. And Jesus does speak of Eunuchs in Mathew 19:12 and the KJV says: “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.”

      Now either Jesus included them in the first category because they are born that way with female-structured brains or they still got included in the 2nd. And he did not speak against it. He did not speak against it!

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      • Whatever may or may not have happened in the past, you will never find in the scriptures that transgender operations are ok. Eunuchs were not transgender. Self castration does not mean transgender. Eunuchs were males who did not become female. They were not given boobs or a vagina. They had bits removed but were not transgender. They were males without the outer genitalia. But inside they were still male. Nowhere Bayne, nowhere does it say Eunuchs had female brains. That is your assumption but there is no basis. Eunuchs are a different category. They were not transgender. keep throwing the scriptures at me though, I am always happy to discuss them. In the scriptures you have mentioned however, they do not support your theories.

      • And even if they did become females Bayne, that still does not make it right. Jesus never ever supported it and you will never find anywhere that he did.

      • It doesn’t make it wrong either. So where IS the scripture of Jesus saying that it is wrong?

      • Except Jesus DID say that Eunuchs are ok. And in biblical times Transgender people WERE called Eunuchs. Self castration was practiced by transgender people in many many different cultures up until the invention of better surgery in the 20’s in Germany and is STILL practiced in India. It wasn’t just removing bits but i’ll spare you the gory details of the crude surgery of the day’s best attempts at making female genitals but as the practice still occurs in India and Pakistan the same way it was thousands of years ago you can stop pretending it didn’t happen. I also told you that they obtained female hormones via the urine of pregnant horses, the same place modern chemists still get the drug they give to women today so that caused them to grow breasts just like modern hormone treatment does. The Romans even had a God for these Eunuchs (like they had a god for everything else) and just to show i’m not making this up here is one of the ancient tools they used http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Cult_of_Cybele_castration_clamp.JPG

        Now Modern Science has shown that Transgender people have those different brains http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.UmfakBCn4Sk so either Jesus knew about this in which case category 1 of Mathew 19:12 includes them alongside Intersex people or somehow Jesus didn’t know about god making them born this way (what Christian would believe that Jesus was ignorant about God’s creation?) but then they still fit into category 2. Becuase in the time of Jesus Eunuchs did often (not all of them but still a great many! A practice continued even to many of the castrato opera singers of european opera) wear womens clothes and behave as women that’s a known historical fact. It happened in Assyria, it happened in Babylon, it happened in Greece, it happened in Rome. Fact. And the Scythian practice of obtaining female hormones to enable them to grow more feminine was known to the ancient Greeks and the ancient Romans. So when Jesus spoke of Eunuchs he knew that many Eunuchs did these things. Yet he did not speak against it even when talking about Eunuchs!

      • There is more to this issue than maybe you realise Bayne. On the issue of eunuchs Bayne, there are 2 main issues. First was the practice of making males eunuchs supported by Jesus? and 2nd, if Jesus did support the practice, did that extend to making a man into a woman or viceversa? Another thing I will discuss with you is about the issue of mental illness in terms of transgender. You seem to take it as a horrible thing to suggest but I will explain to you how it is a more loving way to view transgenders. I know at this point in time you find it abhorrent but it is actually a compassionate way to see them. I will hopefully get back to you tonight as I haven’t the time right now to tap away at the keyboard. Oh and scriptures you asked for, try Deuteronomy 22:5 and 1 Corinthians 6:9. Talk to you soon, Mick

      • The only time Jesus speaks of Eunuchs to my knowledge is in Mathew 19:12. And he does not make a distinction between the Eunuchs who did not dress and act as women or the ones who did not. He simply spoke of Eunuchs born that way, made that way by men and ones who make themselves that way for the kingdom of heaven and says he who can receive it should receive it. There is no condemnation.

        In Isaiah we have Isaiah 56:3-5 which again makes no distinction between types of Eunuch but shows God has a place for Eunuchs in his house.
        And we have Acts 8 26-40 where clearly the eunuch that is baptised by Phillip is spoken of as a man but that does not again list any condemnation. Even though many Eunuchs in many countries around Israel made themselves so as to become as women. So common was this that there are places in the religions and myths of Babylon, Assyria, Greece, Rome, the nomadic tribes from Germany to Turkey and on and on to explain why they existed. So if Jesus was against this he would have said so, for there would be no way he did not know about this practice all around in nations his apostles came from and traveled to.
        I don’t think it is horrible to suggest a mental illness where it is true that something is a mental illness. Plenty of people have mental illnesses and they only deserve support and compassion. However it is to break a commandment to call mental illness what has been shown to not be mental illness. You may try and lie and call it thus in order to pretend it is mere pretense, delusion, and yet i have placed before you the evidence that instead God has made them thus with his own hand, that their perception is confirmed in Gods own creation.

        As for Deuteronomy you forget that has no binding within the Covenent of Christ any more than the ban on eating shellfish or bacon or mixed thread cloth does. And as for Corinthians i take it you are referring to the inclusion of the word Effeminate in a list including alcoholics and the covetous (and sooo many people are covetous) but before you continue down that route do read the rest of Corinthians 6 around that line where the teaching is to NOT JUDGE OTHERS or use the law against others.

        Now the question is who exactly are the ‘effeminate’ listed in this? Considering Transgender peoples femininity stems from having feminine brains but their by God has God made some people inherently destined for hell? Or do they fit into the Eunuch category and these listed here as effeminate are others without feminine brains? Before we answer let us look at the TRANSLATION problem in the King James bible and onward. The Greek word that the servants of King James translated as effeminate was Malakos and some translate it as meaning effeminate while others as meaning male-prostitute! It literally means SOFT or weak or also wanton or unrestrained. The Ancient Greeks would use the term to describe not just feminine men but also whole civilisations who they deemed weak, slavish, deferential, submissive and autocratic. That can refer to an awful lot of things and people and is not a clear unambiguous condemnation of people who god put feminine brains into male bodies or feminine eunuchs nor is it a clear reiteration that the rule of Deuteronomy remains in the new Covenant of Christ. And if the only condemnation within the New Testament is inside a teaching where Jesus is telling you not to use the law to judge others! That passage starts:
        6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

        2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

        Which means that even if you were right and there was no ambiguity in the translation from the Greek it would still be Christs point in his teaching to you that it would be wrong of you to call for the law to restrict these transgender kids anyway! And yet when Jesus spoke those words he may have said the word that was translated into Greek as Malakos to mean slavish and weak of will!

        Would God make some people custom-built for going to hell? Who are biologically feminine the way he made them yet condemned to hell for being so? That would be the act of a wicked god not a Loving God. And yet he said that there are Eunuchs born that way and Transgender people have brains that are between male and female born that way just as Intersex people have other internal and/or external combinations of male and female and are born that way. A Eunuch made so before puberty becomes inherently feminine of body which is why Castrato’s were castrated whether for the Church Choir or the Opera. Yet Eunuchs who believe in God keep the sabbath and hold to the Covenant are to have a special place in the house of the Lord! And a Transgender person born with a male body is feminine in every thought because they have a feminine brain. They are and will be effeminate no matter what they do because the flesh in their skull is feminine. So either they are damned to hell no matter what they choose to do because they cannot remove the femininity put by god in the organ of their brain or they are not damned because they are Eunuchs born that way.

        There are people born in-between male and female. Different types of them. Some more obviously so, the Intersex, and some only so in the physical structure of the organ of the brain, the Transgender. God has put this into nature, into animals and into humans. It is the physical reality of Gods creation.

      • You also haven’t dealt with whether it’s harassment for straight and gay students to use the same ammenities despite that having gone on for generations let alone shown why it would be worse for a Transgender student, who are actually less sexually active than average people, to do so. And as Transgender people are often the victims of assault and sexual assault and rarely perpetrators you must also contend with the fact that a Transgender student using the girls bathroom is less a threat to anyone that the transgender student using the boys is at threat from the boys!

        In schools that are not religious private schools purely religious objections to Transgender are inappropriate, for all students will have equal religious rights, even the students whose religion is pro-transgender.

        The legal provisions for Transgender people to use the bathroom they feel appropriate have existed in some parts of the world for more than 30 years with no dramatic increase in assaults or people pretending in order to enter the womens bathroom despite the regular claim that this would eventuate. Meanwhile we do know that Transgender children and adults in areas without such provisions have suffered greatly including serious illness and injury from not using the bathroom all day.

  17. I don’t know at this time if the schoolgirls were threatened, not having had time to investigate the story but there are some important issues here and these are proven facts.

    Once same sex/lbgt type legislation is passed and becomes law, the authorities take action against you if you speak against it and you have no right to object. The evidence of this is what is happening in the US military at the moment as well as what has happened in Massachusets in recent years. Parents have been told they do not have the right to object to homosexuality being a part of the sex ed curriculum, they cannot pull their kids out of the class or take them home to avoid being indoctrinated in homosexuality. This is fact and I will give you the particulars if you would like.

    In the US, Gay and lesbian people are being brought into schools to talk to young children about gay people and some teachers feel it is their responsibility to teach the children as young as kindergarten age about gay and lesbian issues. This is fact which is backed up by videos put out by gay and lesbian groups themselves.
    Gays and Lesbians have even started their versions of Christianity promoting a gay and lesbian lifestyle. Once again that is on a video put out by gays putting the gay spin on Christianity. there is a massive agenda by gay groups..

    Back to the point of Bernatds story, I have a young daughter and I do not want any boy, transgender or straight in the toilets or change rooms with my daughter. I have a right to that opinion and I believe it is wrong for governments to allow that in school.

    The sad fact for transgender people is that they will never ever be what their minds are telling them they are. A male may get boobs or lose his penis, but he will never be a woman. That is fact. He will never bear a child, he will never have the inner female organs a woman has. In that way he is deluding himself. he may look that way on the outside but will never be one on the inside.

    The same goes for a woman changing to a man., She may have a penis but will never produce spermn to create a child. She may get a beard but she will never ever be a man. So
    What transgender groups are advocating is an outer change to hopefully solve a mental issue.
    God works from the inside out, the world works from the outside in but in the case of transgender, I’m sorry but transgenders will never completely be what their mind is telling them.

    So because they can never be what their mind tells them they want to be, they are deluding themselves. What we should be doing is helping them understand that fact and helping them deal with their mental illness, rather than giving them a superficial solution that cannot work. It is a physical impossibility.

    Post a Reply
    • There is a difference between learning about other types of people and indoctrination. Jesus in the NT and God in the OT taught us to respect those different to us and learn to live with them in harmony. Do you have so little faith in God that you cannot live in a world where believer lives and learns and works side-by-side with unbeliever? Do you have so little faith in God that you feel he cannot compete with other points of view? Do you feel God so weak and powerless that he needs special treatment to help people see his truth? That on a level playing field he will lose? That only through having only Gods way in the classroom will people follow him? How weak and feeble and powerless do you think God is? And stop deluding yourself by calling Transgender a mental illness of psychology when medicine has already found decades ago now that the very structure of their brains is different from birth, structured like the brains of the gender opposite that of their bodies, and that psychological treatments are pathetically ineffective. God makes them that way. They are Created that way by God. Just like the planets and stars inn the sky and the ground beneath your feet. If you don’t like the work of God take it up with him and reconcile yourself with the truth of his creation.

      Post a Reply
      • I find it laughable the questions you ask me. God does not compete with points of view. there is truth and there is falsehoods. Gos is truth, if you disagree with God you believe in lies. Yes God teaches us to respect our neighbour but does loving our neighbour mean condoning any whim or desire that another person may have? God does not condone homosexuality, never has, never will. We all have strengths and weaknesses, what God would have us do is do our best to overcome our weaknesses, in other words, to perfect ourselves.
        Does every perversion of sexuality come from a gene? is there a rapist gene? A pedophile gene? Is there an excuse for every sinful act that excuses it? That is not how God works.

        Jesus came to give us a way to be free of sin. repentance means turning away from sin and livng a clean life, whatever that may mean in terms of sacrifice. I know of gay men who live a life in harmony with Gods will, meaning celibacy, because they love God more than they want to satisfy carnal desires. By doing that, in eternity they will not only have all eternal blessings available to those who keep the commandments, but they will overcome.

        I find it incredible that someone can believe that when a persons body tells them they are a boy and they want to be a girl, that it is not seen as mental illness. They need help, not someone telling them they can’t overcome or just to go with it. God’s way is to overcome, and if you can’t get past those feelings, do not act on them, keep the commandments, do not follow sin and God will bless you.

        true we are all created differently but as I said, do we blame God for rapists or pedophiles? No, they have free will and if they want to follow God, there is a way but it is not to live a life of sin.

        Incidentally, God will never lose, even if the whole country embraced homosexuality because, if you know the scriptures, He is victorious in the end. Jesus will come again and wickedness will be taken from the earth. He wins and that is a comfort to those who value truth.

        Having said that, it does not mean those who have gay and lesbian tendencies won’t be there, as long as they do not act on those desires. the first commandment is love God. If anyone does that, they will be here after jesus comes again.

      • God said “Do not vex a stranger nor oppress him for you were strangers in the land of Egypt”. You should ponder that in depth for in Egypt homosexuality was condoned, even part of their religion.
        If God needs no special treatment then you have nothing to fear from all people of all walks of life living working and studying side by side and all views being taught because Gods truth will rise to the top without help.
        If someone has brain structures like a woman in a body that is otherwise male then it makes complete sense that they felt their whole life to be as a woman on the inside and that is what science has indeed found and thus it’s not mental illness. If you felt you had something wrong with your stomach and after you died they opened you up and found indeed there was a cancer or other disease in your stomach everyone would say “hey he was right” and yet when the same has been found that Transgender people said they had brains different to their bodies and when they died that’s exactly what was found over and over and over again then why do you still act as if it cannot be true?

      • You claim homosexuality was condoned in Egypt, it was in some places yes. the question Balyne, is did God condone it? The answer is no. Honestly Blayne, just because it was condoned in a particular civilization, does not mean God condoned it. The scriptures are explicit on this point. It is not ok with God. There is no need for argument or discussion on that point. The Old Testament and New Testament say it is not ok.

      • You mentioned mental illness. let me explain it this way. If I said to you, “Bayne, I am a dog”. You may say, yep, your are a mongrel, (lol) but I mean a real dog, you know, the 4 legged type. So I say I am a dog. You would say, no mate, you’re a man. I then say again, bayne I am a dog. I know I have a mans body but in my mind, I am a dog, I want to be a dog. You would think, mate, you are 10 cents short of a dollar.

        You would think I had a mental problem of some sort and you would be right. I could never be a dog, it’s impossible. I may find some drug that puts hair all over my body and get some canine shaped teeth put in my mouth. I may put a tail on and try hard to look like a dog. I may begin to howl when an ambulance goes past and start to eat from a bowl. But I would never be a dog. It’a an impossibility. I would need psychiatric help.

        Transgender is the same. A person may try to look like the opposite sex but they can never be the opposite sex. they need help.

      • And when you have even just one person who claims to be a dog who upon their death have their skull opened and a dog brain or even a half-way between a mans and a dogs brain is there instead of a mans brain i will say to you that you have a point. But alas while Transgender people have brains showing differences that are akin to the brains of the sex opposite their bodies there is no such finding of a man with a dog-brain in their skull and so you have no point.
        And you say they need help yet the only help that has been tried that works reliably is the one you object to.

      • You miss the point Bayne, my goodness. The ‘help’ you refer to Bayne is only temporary and as I have said previously, it is impossible to completely be the opposite sex. They are fooling themselves if they think they can.

        I don’t know if you are Christian, Bayne, or a non believer but the truth is that there will be a resurrection. In that day, body and spirit will be reunited. In the case of transgender, they simply return to the sex they were born with. Transgender operations, in an eternal sense are temporary. In the resurrection, a person born as a man will be resurrected as a man. A person born as a woman will be resurrected as a woman. There will be no transgenders. that is the truth.

        We can help them here and aid them in their eternal progression or simply tell them to give into it which may have eternal consequences.

        So really Bayne, what does it mean to love your neighbour? Lie to them and tell them to succumb? Or to help them, give them an eternal perspective that they can look forward to with faith in God?

      • No Mick i do not miss your point. You are saying we should use treatments that do not work and instead lead to alcoholism, drug addiction and suicide over ones that create quality of life. And that could lead them to condemn themselves in the next life as well as this one! You don’t go to hell for such surgery but you sure might sin your way to hell via the alcoholism and drug addiction that come as a consequence of your alternative treatment! You’d send people on a path to hell because you cannot face what God has done in making these people born that way and where God speaks of Eunuchs from Isaiah to the words of Jesus it is with love and acceptance not rejection so so should you!

        You speak of the details of the mystery of resurrection as if speaking from knowledge but you do not have that knowledge. No-where in the bible does God or Jesus say what you have just said. As God gave them women’s brains in men’s bodies and vice-versa he has done so for a reason of his own choosing and however he intends to grant them a share of paradise in the kingdom of heaven it will be through wisdom and love you and i are incapable of imagining or knowing. You presume to speak for God and to know what God has ordained just like a pharisee and are ignoring that it has been discovered that they are born with these brain differences from the womb and thus made that way by God. And did Jesus say a person cannot or should not be a Eunuch? That Eunuchs were unwelcome in the house of the lord or the kingdom of heaven? No he did not.

      • I’ve noted how scientific arguements are now used to bolster the transgender arguement. I must be a woman because I have a woman’s brain and I feel like a woman. Sorry but I don’t accept it. I do believe though that because these people insert themselves into an opposite sex role that their brain develops accordingly I watched a debate many years ago on the ABC on this topic with many transgener/transsexuals in the audience. One transgender stated “I always knew I was a woman because I liked playing with dolls and wearing makeup and dresses” and various other similiar statements. I nearly laughed myself into stitches, These are the stereotypes that I as a natural born woman have been fighting against and am still fighting against. Those types of comments reflect societal and cultural stereotypes and have nothing to do with being a woman. In the 18th century aristocratic men wore makeup, but still considered themselves men.
        So-called gender re-assignment surgery has only been made possible because of modern technology including the experimentation on thousands of hapless animals, plus the taxpayers generous contribution through the medicare scheme. Millions of dollars have been spent worldwide just some a tiny percentage of the population can have the satisfaction of “appearing” to be the sex they think they are. Then having achieved that we are being forced to accept them at their face value. I’ll accept a transgender woman when she menstruates and is doubled over with period pain, when she gets ovarian cysts and has endometriosis. One of the most outstanding things about these “women” I’ve noticed is their vanity and perpetuation of the worst of female stereotypes -to me that is the clincher that the perpetrator is in fact male despite the surgery.

      • Spiny, if they think themselves into having a woman’s brain then they still would have a woman’s brain. Also if they thought themselves into having a woman’s brain then psychological treatment would be successful but it is not therefore they cannot be thinking themselves into having women’s brains. Pretty basic obvious logic shows your assumptions you make in order to deny the evidential truth is just wishful thinking falsehood.

      • Mick, this guy is very confused, best to pray for him.

      • Kat there is nothing confused about looking at the truth of gods own creation and seeing what that means. There sure is in refusing to though. Just as the rightous christians were the ones who supported Copernicus and Galileo’s discovery of the truth. When the Church apologised to Galileo more than 300 years after that was a righteous action by righteous repentant Christ-following Christians. Those Christians who refused to examine the evidence and see for themselves the direct handwriting of God in the heavens because it contradicted their flawed understanding of scripture were unrighteous and and did wrong, an insult to Christ’s teachings and to God and to the flock. Refusing to acknowledge the truth of what science has found of Gods creation leads to wicked words and wicked actions inflicting suffering on innocent children. It is worse than confused to condemn an innocent child and support the bullying and scapegoating of them by a political group lying to try to get more donations for their cause and i am not the one here most needing praying for.

      • I never condemned children this is your own accusation. My gripe is with those who pollute their innocent minds with sinful practices.
        “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. Mark 9:42
        Will pray for you, Jesus is always merciful to those who repent.

      • Where does Jesus refer to Transgender as sinful?
        He knew they existed. He knew it because they were in Rome, in Greece, in Egypt, in Babylon, in Ethiopia and as the son of God he knew that God had them born with the brain differences and genetic links found now by science.

        As Transgender children are born that way no-one pollutes their innocent minds with sinful practices, those innocent kids are born that way. They aren’t convinced or tricked or lured into being Transgender they are born that way inside the womb. The more you turn away from that evidence, the more you try and hide from that truth and speak and act as if it were not there the more you turn your back on Jesus, on God and on your Christian duty.

        To object to the only reliable solutions to their suffering found so far by 80 years of medicine and psychiatry you condemn them to suffering like a Jehovah’s Witness objecting to a blood transfusion for a child does. A child already at risk of self harm and suicide because of the way people with their condition are mistreated has been bullied for political purposes and you don’t speak against that, people all around the world have spewed hateful comments and spoken of violence and you have not spoken against that. Even if you disagreed with everything else the first thing out of your mouth should have been to speak against the bullying of that child. That you hide from the truth in all other respects shows that you have fallen into the same sin as the Pharisees, putting your limited understanding of scripture above creation, above God, above the teachings of Jesus and above basic Christian charity. You allow children to come to harm and be judged because you have not the courage to face evidence of the truth. Your fearful ignorance and cowardice yet willingness to judge what you neither understand nor even try to understand does wickedness to others. And you shall be judged for it as we all eventually are judged by our maker.

      • Wow, some really malicious accusations toward me when I said nothing of the sort.
        Once again Jesus is Merciful to those who repent of sin.

      • As i was primarily speaking of your inactions, your silences, your failure to stand up against the abuse of a child for political/monetary gain by the PJI organisation and your failure to respond to decades of scientific evidence it is the things you have not said not things you have said that matters to my point. I will happily withdraw anything I have said and apologise for any statements regarding your inactions and actions that you object to if you can show them to be untrue.

      • Gender Identity disorder renamed gender dysphoria appears in the DSM Diagnostic and statistical manual of MENTAL Disorders.

      • Kat, they didn’t just rename it, they recategorized it. removing the word DISORDER means it’s not a mental illness, the DYSPHORIA categorisation means they only list the mental suffering that comes from being Transgender, they do not class the cause as mental ilness, they recognise that the suffering is only the symptom of a biological problem. Considering there’s been years of evidence piling up of brain differences in Transgender people they didn’t really have a choice did they, unless they wanted to be liars like the author of the pdf you posted who deliberately ignores this evidence to make the claims they make. I will now prove that author said things which were provably and proven false, so bore false witness, was a liar.

        They said: “Some times, some of these people have claimed that they are ‘a woman trapped in a man’s body’ or alternatively ‘a man trapped in a woman’s body’. Scientifically, there is no such a thing. Therefore anyone who actually truly believes that notion, is by definition deluded, psychotic”

        But scientifically there IS such a thing, making him a liar.

        Here’s what a real scientific study in 2000 found from cutting open the brains of people to look for evidence to find the truth of the matter:
        “Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women (P < 0.006). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder. " http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full

        And that makes a liar of the pdf author you posted. And it's not like this was the only evidence when such verification has now been seen in living brains not just dead ones http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.Umi_2hCn4Sk What is the dictionary definition of delusional? "Delusion an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder."

        Well science has shown those people DO have brains different to their bodies, that is now a proven reality. So that cannot be called a delusion. Calling that false when it has been proven real however IS within the definition of delusional! Therefore your pdf author is the deluded one!

      • Riiiiggght, so you are calling a Psychiatrist who is
        Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada and Diplomate of the American
        Board of Psychiatry and Neurology.
        • Examiner from 1977-2005 for the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology in the Board
        Examinations to become a Board Certified Psychiatrist.
        • Past Assistant Professor of Psychiatry. University of Toronto.
        • Past President. Ontario District Branch of the American Psychiatric Association.
        • Representative for Ontario 2002-2010 to the Assembly (parliament) of the American Psychiatric
        Association.
        • Distinguished Life Fellow, American Psychiatric Association.
        • Author and Presenter, numerous medical and academic Papers at Conferences, Seminars, and in
        Medical Journals.
        • Book Author “The Independent Medical Examination in Psychiatry” ButterworthLexisNexis

        a liar, when your biological based theories are still theory with inconclusive evidence,
        I do believe it is a Psychiatrist or psychologist who diagnose gender dysphoria, and I think the experience of a Psychiatrist of many years in his field is more likely to be correct in his analysis. The link I gave you was released in Jan 2013.

      • A psychiatrist whose opinion is the diametric opposite of the very American Psychiatric Association that you list in his credentials? Whose opinion is the opposite of that of vast numbers of experts in the area of treating and more importantly of studying Transgender people? The evidence you called ‘inconclusive’ was available since 1995 with this dissection study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289 meaning your ‘expert’ is at least 18 years out of date because that dissection study has been confirmed with years of further discoveries of biological aspects to the phenomena such as this in 2000 http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034 and this in 2004 that showed that differences occurred in the womb NOT through social factors like upbringing http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09513590400018231 like this in 2007 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v448/n7154/full/448630b.html and this in 2008 http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3132 and also this in the same year http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/10/27/2401941.htm and then there was this in 2009 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811909003176 and this in 2010 http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956%2810%2900158-5/abstract and let’s not forget that Neurology trumps Psychiatry because Neurology is as the term goes, a ‘hard science’ involving direct measurable evidence (like geology) whereas psychiatry is only a ‘soft science’ with less direct observation of phenomena and more indirect observation (like sociology). For your psychiatrist to be not a liar there would need to have been NO such evidence, not a SINGLE study finding such evidence should ever have found any differences and even suggestive evidence would count (and over a decade of validated findings does not count as inconclusive) he would be ethically required to mention it in his statement that it was possible even if not yet proven (that’s how science works!) and that he did not shows he has born false witness. There has been no disproof of all the findings i have quoted. The one study which attempted to do so was later shown to be methodologically flawed in how they determined their conclusion and the data they gathered actually reinforced the findings of there being distinct neurological differences in Transgender peoples brains. So yeah, if he ignored almost 20 years of hard science and stated the exact opposite of what all the collected neurological evidence showed then what other word is there for someone who says the exact utter opposite of what the evidence shows?

      • Riggghhhht whatever you reckon, deluded and psychotic is the words used in Psychiatry to diagnose such conditions.
        Gender identity disorder name was changed because aof political purposes, and to avoid hurting your feelings bayne. But it still appears ans a condition in the DSM.

      • You cannot erase the physical evidence by wishing it away Kat! Either they have different brains or they do not. To prove they do not a comparatuve study would be done that found no differences whatsoever in their brain structure yet when all those studies were done they DID find those differences as i showed you and pretending that didn’t happen and avoiding facing that fact is just lying to yourself. As for the APA’s changes actually the only reason they kept in the lesser limited dysphoria version in the DSM, unlike in France where it was removed altogether, and don’t miss that the American Psychiatric Association said ” It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder.” was so that the American health system would still allow people access to treatment under the old system that in several American states and with several health insurance companies requires a psychiatric diagnosis in order to access transgender healthcare. “To get insurance coverage for the medical treatments, individuals need a diagnosis. The Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders Work Group was concerned that removing the condition as a psychiatric diagnosis—as some had suggested—would jeopardize access to care. ” “Ultimately, the changes regarding gender dysphoria in DSM-5 respect the individuals identified by offering a diagnostic name that is more appropriate to the symptoms and behaviors they experience without jeopardizing their access to effective treatment options. ” http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Gender%20Dysphoria%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf And the entire field of Psychiatry is on the back foot as Neurology is a superior ‘Hard Science’ to their less scientific ‘Soft Science’ because Neurology deals directly with the brain so as i pointed out to you Neurology Trumps Psychology. Just like where Psychology had claimed Ulcers were a psychological condition that was caused by stress effecting the body but Biologists showed Ulcers were caused by infection and could be cured with medical treatment not psychiatric treatment (The Australian scientist who proved that got quite the prestigious prize) so hard-science trumps psychiatry anyway, and they are scrambling to add new mental illnesses to their list to replace ones they cannot keep claiming because other fields have proven they aren’t psychological but biological (look into it and you’ll see that they have been adding as much as they can to keep their business alive! Yet they had to back down on Transgender just like on ulcers). So we have clear facts found over nearly 20 years that PROVE transgender people are NEITHER psychotic NOR delusional and are Born That Way and the more you avoid that fact the more you sin against God with your self-deception. Recently the Pope spoke against Ideological Christians and you might find his words helpful.

  18. Here is something crucial. Regardless of whether it is true that a Transgender person using the bathroom in itself constitutes harassment it remains the case that those who have fact-checked the story have found that there has been no threatening of schoolgirls with hate crime charges for complaining especially because no schboolgirls have complained. Therefore the headline of the article remains Bearing False Witness. The known verified complaints originated from a political group and some say two parents. Therefore the story circulating remains a lie, remains a breaking of one of the ten commandments regardless of arguments about what constitutes harassment.

    Post a Reply
    • I’ve just been looking into this and the story is still current and families of school girls have complained. It also comes down to the sources you get your information from. Indepenadance is almost impossible to find in media and interest groups. You also have to understand that when controversy arises, people go into damage control and sugar coat what really happened. I have not found the story debunked because we may never know, without bias in reporting what the truth actually is.

      I’ll give you an example. We know China is communist but are not taught how it really came about. We know there was a civil war and Chiang kai Shek lost, went to Taiwan and ruled. We are told how bad Skek was and he was the problem.

      What we don’t hear is that the Shek wanted China to have a US style constitution. Some in the US government didn’t like that because from the time the US constitution was penned, people have tried to change the constitution and the last thing some in the US government wanted was another US style constitution in another country. At the time Shek was being armed by the Americans and when Shek refused to form governemt with Mao, the support was taken way and Shek lost.

      Did you know that China could have been a free society today if it were not for those in the US government? Remeber, there was a problem with communists in the US at the time and there were communists in the US government as there are today. (think I’m joking, I will give you details if you want)

      So, one story, 2 different takes. The first, a biased account, the second, the truth.

      So the truth is a hard to find commodity I’m afraid, but the fact is that boys, transgender or not, should not be in a girls toilets or change rooms

      Post a Reply
      • What is your source then? Because the audio interview with a member of key staff of the school from the school is direct evidence. The public statements of girls from the school who say the Transgender student is the victim of harassment not a perpetrator are direct evidence. Several journalists have posted apologies corrections and/or retractions after fact-checking.

        Furthermore before you make any conclusions about where Transgender students belong how about you try showing your reasoning for those conclusions and how about you explain what amenities the Transgender student should use and please do show a non-hypocritical line of reasoning that also takes into account the existence of Gay students and Lesbian students and Bisexual students currently using the same bathroom as heterosexual ones and this having been the case for generations. Also take into account that all available studies and statistics show that Transgender people are very often the victims of violence and sexual assault and very rarely the perpetrators of them so in our assessment of risk we must consider the proportional risk to the Transgender student.

        If your conclusion about where they belong is based on danger or threat then unless you can show that a Transgender student is a demonstrably greater safety risk than all the Bisexual and Lesbian students in the school combined and so much greater a risk as to be greater than the risk to the Transgender student if they were sent to the boys amenities then you are just making assumptions and calling them facts.

        With medical science showing Transgender kids are born that way and have brains that developed in the womb different to their bodies and thus are created that way by God then upon what basis do you judge them as not belonging in the amenity appropriate to the way their minds were created by God?

      • Sources? Google “colorado school girls hate crime”. Lots of references. Are your from gay and lesbian sites or reputable news outlets?

        Where should transgenders go to toilets. etc? Build separate ones for them. I believe it is wrong for boys to be in the same toilets with girls. transgender or not. Transgender boys are not girls and never will be. They should not be in the same facilities.

        Once again you are looking for excuses to excuse behaviour in a Godly sense. It is not how a person is born it is how he lives. God wants us to overcome, not to succumb. So stop blaming God. I have my weaknesses but I don’t blame God, I try to overcome. I will never be perfect in this life but I am trying. By following His will, I will be one day. We are commanded, “be ye therefore perfect”. Living a gay/lesbian lifestyle is not taking you to perfection. It is going the other way.

        To have gay feelings is not sinful, acting on them is. We are here to overcome. We start by loving God more than our own selves.

      • Sorry but googling and getting a bunch of circular repetitions doesn’t count as primary sources. Meanwhile the mother of the child, the school supervisor of the school, other parents of children at the school and girls from the school can be heard in audio statements in their own voices and their own words. Those are primary sources not chinese whispers quote of a quote of a quote tales.

        Again you act as if there’s some special threat from a transgender kid yet i ask you again. Show that a gay or lesbian is not a greater threat than a transgender one when gay and lesbian kids have always shared bathrooms with the same sex.

        And where does Jesus speak against Transgender? Even though Transgender people were known of and surprisingly common in the lands around Israel including the lands that several of the Apostles came from.

        Besides he also says to love your neighbour and there is no ‘so long as he is christian’ escape clause to allow you to insist everyone else follow the same rules and interpretations of scripture that you do. Whether other denominations of Christianity, other Abrahamic faiths or any other religion you are to treat them with the same respect you would have them treat you. So unless you would be ok if Transgender people forced you to become Transgender then you should do nothing to force them to stop being Transgender. And unless you would be ok with them casting your children from school then you should raise no objection to them being in school and so on and so forth. And especially unless you would be ok with a Transgender political group singling out your own child for international hate through deliberate misrepresentation of the facts spread through the media for political gain then you should be objecting to this unconscionable outrageous act of bullying no matter your view on what is best for children in general.

        If you consider yourself a true Christian then treat this child as you would want your own child treated if people all around the world objected to your child using the same bathroom as non-christians because it had been reported she had blasphemed and insulted another faith and then later it was amended to ‘by being a christian’. Do unto Transgender people as you would have Transgender people do unto you.

  19. The whole episode os based on lies told by transgender hate groups ( fundi Christians )

    If Bernard has a shred of decency he will retract and apologize for being sucked in to this con job

    ==========================================

    Anti-trans group admits it made up Colorado student harassment story
    THE GUERRILLA ANGEL REPORT — You’ve seen the story earlier this week — ‘a trans student harasses girls in the locker room of a Colorado high school’ — when it went nearly viral on social media.

    When I first saw it, I took a quick at the source — FOX News sourced to a leading tabloid, UK’s Daily Mail. That was my cue to move on to other things — things with an actual chance of being factual.

    However, Cristan Williams, a writer on trans issues, did take the time investigate the claims being made and blew the story wide open — she proved it was completely false. Williams stated in TransAdvocate she believes the hate group — Pacific Justice Institute (PJI) has admitted to making up this claim.

    Now, Zack Ford of ThinkProgress, is also saying the trans hate group, Pacific Justice Institute (PJI), admits to making the entire story up.

    Ford: “. . . as far as PJI is concerned, it doesn’t matter if the transgender student actually did anything to harass these girls. Simply by entering the girls’ locker room, she was “inherently intimidating and harassing” the other girls who use it.”

    The story initially gain traction after an anti-trans and LGBT Christian media site got a hold of the PJI statement and published it. Neither FOX News or the Daily Mail attempted to confirm the story as factual. In fact, Bill O’Reilly did a ‘I told you this would happen’ segment on his show blasting trans equality shortly after FOX New’s reporting of this bogus story.

    Some of the sites have reportedly retracted their stories. I’m not so sure about FOX News at this point.

    ——–

    I’m not surprised at all how low some hate groups will go. But least they know they’re being monitored and news media sites — even tabloids — may not be so gullible the next time around.

    Cristan Williams: http://www.transadvocate.com/trans-student-attacking-girls-in-restroom-or-you-know-not.htm

    http://www.transadvocate.com/anti-gay-activist-group-admits-trans-school-harassment-is-fake.htm

    Zack Ford: http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/10/17/2797141/pacific-justice-institute-invented-transgender/

    More on FOX News’ reporting of this story: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/360387

    ———-

    Is it time to see a great trans feature film? You bet! — Get the award-winning film Lexie Cannes and help cover GAR expenses: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0963781332 Or via PayPal: http://www.lexiecannes.com/id13.html

    THE GUERRILLA ANGEL REPORT is associated with Wipe Out Transphobia: http://www.wipeouttransphobia.com/

    Read Lexie Cannes in The Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/courtney-odonnell/

    Post a Reply
    • Good luck with getting Bernard to retract and apologize.

      Post a Reply
  20. “The story first broke at the Christian Broadcasting Network. Unsurprisingly, that report about a “male student” at Florence High School who “claims to be a transgender” [sic] “harassing girls in the bathroom” did not identify a single student or parent who complained nor a single complaint about what was actually happening. In fact, the story seemed to be built around a letter submitted to the school by the anti-LGBT Pacific Justice Institute demanding privacy protections on behalf of the girls.”

    Bernard perhaps you would be kind enough to quote your sources for this information ?

    Did this come from a reputable unbiased news source what quoted details that can be checked

    Or is it a total fabrication ?

    Remember telling lies is a pretty important thing for Christians to do

    Remember Proverbs 12:22

    “Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.”

    Are you the abomination here ?

    Post a Reply
  21. Bernard Please remind me

    You went to RMC Duntroon is that correct ?

    Were you on the football team there ?

    Just curious

    Especially about the alleged homosexual activity to become a member of the team, I know a few cordies who quit rather than submit to the pressure to engage in homosexual activities at Duntroon

    You completed your course there ?

    Is this where your fear and hatred comes from ?

    Post a Reply
    • Doug. I went to RMC and I played football too. Then I graduated, commanded soldiers and fought for this country. I am proud of my service. I am also quite comfortable in what I stand for and I don’t need to throw around baseless sexual slurs on another person’s character to make me feel good. Nor do I need to slander a whole cohort of other young men who did the same thing as me – serve this nation. I leave that up to people like you. By the way, I did not come across any homosexuality at RMC. It just wasn’t part of the culture when I went through. Things seem to have changed now. By your sarcastic tone, it can only be surmised that even you don’t think this is for the better. Just for the record, have you put on a uniform for this country, or do you just like insulting those who do?

      Post a Reply
  22. “It takes a great deal of time and effort to research and prepare his posts” part of the statement at the top of this page asking for donations. All I can say is it took me a 5 minute Internet search to discover that these allegations were false and that they were being promoted by, you guessed it Fox News. Perhaps Mr Gaynor should be reviewing his research skills before asking for support.

    Post a Reply
    • No. These allegations are not false. It takes about 30 seconds to see the truth. Transgender campaigners are now pretending that parents are not even allowed to complain when their daughters’ privacy is compromised by delusional males. The lie is to say that it is not harassment for a male to be in female change rooms.

      Post a Reply
      • Yet the audio interview with the school Principal, the public statements from female students, the person who first reported on the allegations all support that the initial press release by the political group included false statements. Fabrications. Deliberate distortions. Lies. The bearing of false witness.

        The Transgender teen according to all eyewitness accounts been the subject of bullying, violence, overt direct harassment all before then being used as a pawn of an organisation with a political agenda making up lies which even now can at best be claimed to be gross exaggerations using a different interpretation of ‘sexual harassment’ then that used by the law, and at worse are deliberate callous falsehoods in an act of slanderous libelous calumny on an international scale. If we must measure one harassment and another, weigh them upon scales of balance and justice, then even if the presence of a transgender student in the bathroom was to constitute harassment then still it is a far lesser evil than that perpetrated on that innocent child.

        Now even if we were to follow your line of thinking that the transgender students mere presence constituted harassment where does that line of reasoning also lead?
        * If the transgender student is only attracted to males is it still harassment for them to use the girls amenities?
        * If the transgender student is at all attracted to males, is it not also harassment for them to use the male bathroom too?
        * Is it not then also harassment if a gay or lesbian student shares a locker room or bathroom with students of the same sex?
        * If the lesbians cannot share such amenities with the same sex must they then use the boys amenities and vice versa for the gay students?
        * If the latter is so, is it not then harassment of those lesbians/gays to have heterosexuals of the opposite sex in the same amenities as them?
        * Is it not then harassment if a bisexual student shares a locker room with anyone at all?
        * As many homosexuals and bisexuals keep their orientation private is it not harassment for anyone to use an amenity with someone of the same sex when they are not known to be heterosexual?
        * As the possibility of lying about one’s sexuality exists is it not harassment for a heterosexual to have to share an amenity with anyone who may be lying about being heterosexual and therefore sharing an amenity with anyone is in itself intrinsically harassing because everyone’s honesty cannot be trusted?
        * Is it not then only possible to prevent this intrinsic harassment for every public amenity everywhere and anywhere to be converted into a single-user-only unisex(uality) amenity so no-one shares with anyone else?

        I think these are all equally valid points based on that one precedent, as equally true or equally false as the notion that sharing an amenity with a Transgender person constitutes an intrinsic harassment. If so then surely the greater problem is that multi-user amenities exist when only single-user amenities are truly private and safe.

  23. From David McCaine of the San Jose Christian Perspectives Examiner (who did some fact-checking first hand after first uncritically publishing what the CBN wrote)

    “Having the proper “Christian” attitude needs to be revisited by CBN and all of those claiming to be a child of God. Even “Saul” thought he was doing God’s work when he persecuted Christians, had them arrested, thrown into prison, and even approved of the killing of Christians.

    Does CBN want to have the same reputation as Westboro Baptist Church? Unfortunately too much Pharisee has been the make-up of many Christians concerning subjects as homosexuality and transgenders. This story picked up by CBN was a disservice to the cause of Christ, a slam against transgenders in general, and a grossly exaggerated innuendo that impacted a transgender teen at Florence High School in Colorado.

    I am the Christian perspectives writer for San Jose that picked up the story from CBN whom I was over confident that the story was true, because after all, it was CBN. I set aside fact checking because I put too much emphasis that CBN would have credibility. I was dead wrong, and so was CBN. I posted a retraction but the damage was already done as the story has taken on a life of its own and according to one commentator that took me to task in the comments section, international.

    CBN needs to print a retraction of its transgender story. It is not worth it to continue legitimacy to a lie that could do harm to an innocent teen whose only guilt is being born. Both CBN and myself were deceived and the next task is to confess, ask for forgiveness, and seek redemption as 1 John 1:9 declares. God hates it when false testimony is given and according to Proverbs 6:16-18 we better clean up our acts.”

    Post a Reply
    • There is no false testimony. Transgender supporters are not only aiming to create situations that allow them access to opposite-sex change rooms, they are now also brazenly stating that parents have no right to complain when their daughters’ privacy is compromised by delusional boys.

      Post a Reply
      • Ah so you think David McCaine is a liar. I see.

  24. As this ‘report’ is now known to be proven a lie, while you may have innocently spread that lie you have a responsibility to publicly acknowledge that it was a lie so that the lie stops spreading to other innocent people.

    Also, before you blame America for Transgender people existing you should look up the Sistagirls of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island traditions. Do note the traditions of the Tiwi Islands, a part of Australia. Then note also the traditions throughout Polynesia from New Zealand to Samoa all the way to Hawaii.

    I’m assuming you aren’t deliberately bearing false witness but have just been misinformed and will post an update after some fact-checking that decries the lie you innocently spread and also acknowledges the traditional religious and cultural beliefs of Australia’s indigenous peoples and those of our neighbours throughout Polynesia and respects them the same way you would wish those people to respect your Catholicism just as any good Christian would.

    I look forward to your demonstration of Christian virtue with such a fact-checked update and denouncement of those who bore false witness in creating these lies.

    Post a Reply
    • Bayne Macgregor, I am guessing you are trans?

      Post a Reply
      • kat, if it’s any help, i am NOT trans and i FULLY support bayne’s comment. don’t you?

      • Kat, neither am I transgender. And, like Gary, I fully support Bayne’s comment.

      • Does is not occur to you that the Aboriginal communities and tiwi islands as well as Hawaii all have high percentage of mental illness and instability? If they have so many people who claim to suffer gender identity disorders then it is this one has to factor into consideration. I think it is tragic that there are some people who are so damaged mentally that they feel the urge to mutilate themselves under the name sex reassignment surgery. Anorexic people also suffer mental damage and believe they are fat, does this mean we feed the mental illness and allow the whim of the mental illness to become dominant in order that they starve themselves?

      • Kat, it doesn’t matter whether i am or am not. Truth is truth and inaccuracy is inaccuracy based solely on what is said and not upon who says it. As for your later comment in the reply tree, alas i cannot reply directly to it for whatever reason so i’m replying to it here, where you said:
        “Does is not occur to you that the Aboriginal communities and tiwi islands as well as Hawaii all have high percentage of mental illness and instability?”

        All indigenous peoples suffering from occupation and damage to their culture have such high incidence of mental illness yet these cultures had these gender-diverse traditions prior to occupation. In fact most of the world until recently had such traditions and the anti-gender diversity culture we now live in was mainly spread by colonial Britain by force of British law.

        “I think it is tragic that there are some people who are so damaged mentally that they feel the urge to mutilate themselves under the name sex reassignment surgery.”

        Except that modern medicine says they are born with key brain differences in their physical brain and are not that way through any mental damage whatsoever. Making it no more ‘mutliation’ than fixing a cleft palate or a club foot is mutilation. There is already evidence that it is genetic (and perhaps also Epigenetic) in origin.

        Furthermore if you are a christian then we have Jesus clearly okay with this in Mathew 19:12 and remember that in biblical times such surgeries while cruder were practiced by the Scythians and amongst the Romans and the Babylonians and others of Israels neighbours so this was not an unknown practice to Jesus and instead of objecting to it he actually supports it as does God in Isaiah 56:4-5

      • Twisting scripture,. I seem to remember this is something you do quite frequently based on your other comments on this blog.You do realise that Jesus never condoned the immoral practices of the pagan Babylonians and pagan Romans. I also believe I have addressed your version regarding eunuchs before, however I will once again remind you what the passage actually means. “For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this let him receive it” (Mt 19:12).

        A eunuch is someone incapable of sexual relations. Thus, when Christ speaks of eunuchs from birth, he’s referring to people who are incapable of sexual union because of some birth-defect. When he speaks of those who have been made eunuchs by men, he’s probably referring to those sorry souls who have fallen under the blade of castration.
        In translations of ancient texts, “eunuch” may refer to a man who is not castrated but who is impotent, celibate, or otherwise not inclined to marry and procreate.

        Also just because a culture has particular practices prior to occupation of what you refer to as anti gender diversity europeans, it does not mean it is right. Say for example, the inca tribes of America practiced human sacrifice, Aboriginals had a practice of promising young girls to old men or elders of the tribe. Are these practices right?
        Modern medicine is something that has been tampered with by those who fail to take the hippocratic oath. It is not a medical professionals job to cut off or tamper with a persons physical being if it is functioning in a healthy manner, sadly if there is money involved some will abandon the reason why they became a medical professional. If one is born with cleft palate, the infant often has trouble suckling which can lead to the infant being underweight, thus it is necessary to operate to not only improve the child’s face cosmetically, but to improve their quality of life including physical health. As for Genetics, this is a theory not fact, psychological factors are more likely.
        And as to if you are trans or not, it does matter, because your comments are seemingly alluding to the fact you are trying to justify a particular lifestyle.

      • Wow Troy, your comment does not even warrant a reply.

      • I’m sorry but your the one whose twisting the scripture. Let’s examine it with a little bit of knowledge shall we?

        ” A eunuch is someone incapable of sexual relations.”

        Except that the word eunuch is used to this very day to refer to transgender castrati such as the Hijra of India today and was practiced amongst some of Israels neighbours in biblical times who, seeing as they include prostitutes amongst them now and then may be incapable of reproduction but are indeed capable of sexual relations and the biblical words used at the time referred to people who were castrati and not castrati too.

        Of course you COULD argue that Jesus was ignorant of the fact that God had created transgender-correlated genes (such as the one discovered by Australian scientists in the 2008) as well as the differences they have in the Lymbic Nucleus and other parts of the brain in and so he could not possibly have included transgender people in the people he spoke of when he said ‘For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth” because he was ignorant but surely he, if he were who he and others since claimed him to be, knew of that and would include them in scripture to deal with the reality of Transgender people along with the many Intersex people who fit into that category in either interpretation.

        As for different cultural and religious practices well when a practice harms the rights of someone else we put a stop to them, such as witch-burning and the execution of non-believers such as Jews. But when they do not harm another’s rights we allow them. Because the modern world embraced Reciprocal Ethics as taught by Jesus in Mathew 7:12 and long before Jesus was in Exodus 22:21 which means that we allow people of all religions the same rights and just as witch-burning is no longer allowed neither is human sacrifice but just as Christianity is allowed so too are other faiths as long as they stick to the limit of not harming others rights. Changing ones own body whether an ear piercing or tattoo or a person choosing circumcision for themselves for religious purposes or something as extreme as castration is all within a persons own rights. The many studies showing that transgender peoples surgeries are an effective treatment for their suffering and the lower (near invisible) rate of success for any psychological alternative treatment are also things you need to contend with in order to show you are correct.

        “As for Genetics, this is a theory not fact,”

        They’ve already found several correlate genes, such as the 2008 discovery i’ve already mentioned, so there are some facts you’ll need to disprove in order to be right.
        Experiments on epigenetic switches of mice (not that i’m supporting such experimentation) have also found gender behaviour can be altered by an epigenetic switch early in their development (in the womb).
        They have found brain differences in FMRI scans and in the dissected brains of Transgender people, those are also facts.
        There has been failure to attribute transgender to psychology however, the various expert organisations all have removed it or are in the process of removing it from their list of mental illnesses because the evidence goes against it so the psychology theory is gone. They tried and tried for the last 70 or 80 years to show that it was psychological but they have failed and the biological evidence remains. For the psychological to be a valid explanation there would need to be no available biological evidence only psychological evidence. But there is the biological evidence.

        So when you say
        “psychological factors are more likely.”
        You are stating something false, whether it’s your own mistake or you are echoing someone else who has made that mistake. The evidences of the natural world is the writing of God in Gods own hand in the world, just like the Earth moving around the Sun. To dispute it because it does not fit your own interpretation of scripture is to dispute God because his acts do not fit what you think he meant by his words. When the two are in disagreement then it is your interpretation which is at fault, not his creation.

        “And as to if you are trans or not, it does matter, because your comments are seemingly alluding to the fact you are trying to justify a particular lifestyle.”

        Attributing the truthfulness or falseness of an argument not to the argument and evidence but instead to who the person is who makes the argument is a Classical Logical Fallacy, a kind of false-argument known to be a form of deception (whether intentional or not) long before the time of Christ. So it’s a form of Bearing False Witness.

        I’m right if i’m right, if i’m wrong if i’m wrong, regardless of who i am.

      • Im done with this conversation, I will not throw pearls before swine. You obviously do not know the origin of the word eunuch nor do you understand scripture, And Jesus would never support the deliberate actions of those who chose to mutilate His creation, and so I will not converse any longer with you on the matter because you fail to see logic and reason.

      • PS.
        “Many things can change and have changed in our cultural and social evolution, but the fact remains that it is the woman who conceives, carries in her womb and gives birth to the children of men,”- Pope Francis
        And no amount of surgery performed on a man or lipstick will ever change this fact.

      • You cannot continue the conversation because you cannot face the truth. You talk of the origin of the word Eunuch (Greek for, to hold the bed. Let’s also not forget also the Greek Epigram “Do you ask, Panychus, why your Caelia only consorts with eunuchs? Caelia wants the flowers of marriage – not the fruits.” that shows that the word referred often to fertility not sexual capacity) and you ignore that the priestesses of Cybele were common sights throughout Greece and Rome and there were similar in Babylon, Assyria, Egypt and more.

        Jesus said “If thine eye offend thee pluck it out”, so be careful putting your own words into his mouth. Jesus did not preach against the practice of castration despite being common at the time. God said to treat those different to you well despite their differences because the jews were strangers when in the land of egypt and you know what was common in egypt? Castrati and homosexuality. So God has already said you must respect those who are different to you.

        Now if Jesus didn’t know that Transgender people are born Transgender you make an argument against the godhood of Jesus not against the reality that science has uncovered and is further still uncovering. You put your own interpretation of scripture against the raw untranslated undiluted hand of god in the observable reality of his very own creation? Ignore the scripture where from Isaiah to Jesus to apostles where you are told to welcome the eunuch into the house of the lord? Ignore Jesus telling you to treat others different to you with the same respect you would have them treat you?

        As for what may come of surgery, whether ethical or not there are several ways it may actually become possible. But also importantly there are many women unable to conceive who are nonetheless women. God made Transgender people that way. More and more medical evidence from genes to brain structure show this.

      • It was not my interpretation of scripture, but the Church.
        Transgender try hard “women” will never carry a baby in utero, because they do not have one.
        Jesus will always be merciful to one who repents of sin.

      • The church was once wrong about heliocentrism and eventually had to face that the direct word of God is in his observable creation which is why for a long time christians were at the heart of scientific exploration. Wherever the churches interpretration of scripture goes against God’s own creation then it has lost it’s way and like with heliocentrism it will have no choice but to re-examine scripture in order to find the correct interpretation, and the longer it delays in doing so the more flock it loses and worse the more harm it allows to be done in it’s name.

        As for the future possibility of carrying children you clearly are not keeping up with the directions that both organ transplant and stem-cell science is headed and do note that i have already recognised the ethical concerns in this. But really regardless of where the science is headed it doesn’t undo that the science already has been showing for years and years now that transgender people are born that way which means that God for his own reasons has created them. If you don’t like the fact that God made some people Transgender take your problem up with him! Reconcile the conflict in your faith, but stop hiding behind excuses. Stop blaming Transgender people for being the way that God made them. If you don’t like Gods own works talk to him and tell him so but stop hiding from the truth.

      • pffft, If God made people “transgender” He would have drawn an arrow on their genitalia saying cut here on dotted line. And I am not referring to those who are born with physical abnormality.
        Really ‘Bayne” give it up, It is a Psychological disorder as you have clearly displayed.
        And please stop demeaning the female sex by claiming imitation organs equate to being female, because they do not. they do not function the same, if at all.
        A radical and grotesque mutilation of the body….To destroy organs purposefully that are healthy and functioning, and to try to create imitation organs which will never have the genuineness and functioning of authentic organs is gross and lacks charity. Such surgery which purposefully destroys the bodily integrity of the person must be condemned.

      • No, seriously, if they are born that way then God makes them that way. Your being flippant about that just shows how you are sinning against your neighbours. You aren’t referring to those born with a physical abnormality? Strange i thought you were talking about Transgender people because studies on the brains of Transgender people (by autopsy in the past and now done by FMRI scans both with the same findings) over decades have shown their brains are differently physically structured and that those changes are not caused by any medical intervention but are there before any surgery or hormones or drugs and so are there from birth. Natural. Whether a defect or not they are Born That Way by Gods design. That’s why the various organizations that list what is and isn’t a psychological disorder are removing it from the lists. Being Transgender ISN’T a psychological disorder.
        As for bodily integrity are you sure you are in the right religion? Because Jesus Christ said “If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out” so he didn’t seem to put as much value on bodily integrity as you do. These Transgender kids are innocent kids born that way, an act of God for whatever reason he has. Make your peace with God, the Transgender kids are innocent kids born that way through Gods design for whatever reason he has for doing so.

      • People presenting with transgender mental illness are either born male or female with genetalia to match, and once again not refering to children born with physical abnormality.
        Just how is it that a man can claim he feels he is a woman if he has never been woman as he was born a boy?
        This is a dead give away that he is suffering mental illness.
        If you believe God created you the way you are, why is it necessary to seek surgery to change what God created?
        And if you believe in God, you must believe in the devil, he is one who revels in twisting what God has created to be of use to him and his demons to spread immoral and sinful practices. Yes kids are innocent, so stop trying to pervert their minds with issues of transgender and gay agenda.

      • The best analogy of what the transgender activist promote is summed up in one of Aesops fables,
        It happened that a Fox caught its tail in a trap, and in struggling to release himself lost all of it but the stump. At first he was ashamed to show himself among his fellow foxes. But at last he determined to put a bolder face upon his misfortune, and summoned all the foxes to a general meeting to consider a proposal which he had to place before them. When they had assembled together the Fox proposed that they should all do away with their tails. He pointed out how inconvenient a tail was when they were pursued by their enemies, the dogs; how much it was in the way when they desired to sit down and hold a friendly conversation with one another. He failed to see any advantage in carrying about such a useless encumbrance. “That is all very well,” said one of the older foxes; “but I do not think you would have recommended us to dispense with our chief ornament if you had not happened to lose it yourself.”

      • But there is no such thing as Transgender ‘mental illness’ much as you want it to be a mental illness, they are born with measurable physical differences in the structure of their brains as seen in autopsies in the 90s and seen in FMRI scans now too, those are physical differences from birth. Unless the Devil now has a say in Creation then the Devil has no part in the creation of those differences in the brains of Transgender kids. As for surgery well lots of surgery is change of what God created whether removing a cancer, repairing a hole in the heart from a malformed heart or fixing a facial deformity are you going to foreswear all medicine as being against God now? If you think it so impossible God might create Transgender kids who need surgery what answer do you have for why God created Polio? Rickets? Leukemia? Malformed Heart Ventricles? Aneurisms? Any and all other Birth Defects? Any and all disease? No you look for excuses to put the way you want the world and God to be ahead of the truth. Transgender kids are innocent kids and the perversion is to act far worse than Doubting Thomas and to deny the evidence because it doesn’t fit what you thought you knew of God and his works. If you were right there would be no evidence of brain structure differences in transgender people. If you were right the autopsies would have found nothing different, the FMRI scans would have found nothing different, there would be no evidence to have it removed from the mental illness lists and yet the evidence is there, God’s own handwriting. So make your peace with God over it because those kids are born Transgender no matter what anyone says to them. God and God alone could make them like that.

      • Ah now you are staring to understand, the devil cannot create, infact everything God makes is useless to him unless he twists it to something other than what it was intended for. And cutting of genitalia to resemble something else other that what God created or intended it for is just that.
        Tell me if you agree with transgender genital mutilation, you must agree with female genital mutilation aka female circumcision.
        You mention medical problems such as polio ect. these are not intended abnormailties or deliberately inflicted by surgeons upon healthy people. We lived in a perfect world before the fall of man, after that sin and suffering has become present in the world, through suffering expressed with love and charity it is beneficial to humanity or we would become a selfish lot with no respect for life, or compassion. But the fact remains transgender surgery is harmful and irriversable. Your pesistance with trying to prove transgender lifestyle as being ok is alluding to the fact you are like the fox who lost his tail.

      • “Tell me if you agree with transgender genital mutilation, you must agree with female genital mutilation aka female circumcision.”

        Nope. Because something an adult person chooses for their own body of their own free will is ethical and that imposed by another is not. So a male adult convert to Judaism’s circumcision is ethical for example. And i’ve never heard of any adult woman choosing of their own free will that procedure but they would have to for it to be Ethical or comparable.

        “You mention medical problems such as polio ect. these are not intended abnormailties or deliberately inflicted by surgeons upon healthy people.”

        Science has shown that there is a difference between the brain and the body of a transgender person. Your attempt to characterise them as “healthy” (especially when you were calling them mentally ill earlier) is to lie and to ignore the truth of their suffering. The brain develops first, the body second and the brain cannot be as effectively changed compared with the body once born. The first is proven by the discovery of the brain differences, the second is proved by the many studies over well over half a century showing the better outcomes for Transgender people from having access to such surgery if they choose it is proof of this. It is wicked to promote the lie that this is not the case when it has been so oft shown to be the case.

        “We lived in a perfect world before the fall of man, after that sin and suffering has become present in the world, through suffering expressed with love and charity it is beneficial to humanity or we would become a selfish lot with no respect for life, or compassion.”

        And yet you show none to Transgender children with your refusal to face truths you dislike despite the proven greater suffering if you were to have your way because psychiatry has failed to find an effective alternative treatment despite 80-something years of trying!

        “But the fact remains transgender surgery is harmful and irriversable.”

        Show the evidence that it is more harmful than the alternatives. You will see that every credible study has shown that psychiatric treatment does not work even remotely as effectively as the surgery you denounce.

        And don’t try that ‘lifestyle’ attempt to lie either. All available reputable medical evidence shows they are born that way so we are dealing with a difference of the brain caused during development in the womb not some ‘lifestyle’ choice. Either they are born with that difference or they are not and medical evidence says that they indeed are. That’s not a matter of faith just fact so like those who had trouble coping with the discovery the Earth went round the Sun you are just going to have to gain some maturity and learn to cope with it. But that fact means that they must be made that way by God whether it’s the way he makes left-handed people or the way he makes people with deformed limbs. You can’t keep hiding behind ignorance now that you’ve been told that they are born that way and science has shown that their brain structure is different. So your obligation as a Christian is to show them the compassion appropriate to that fact. Besides are you so without sin that you can cast stones at children?

      • “Bayne” you are deluded, and cannot see logic or reason, I hope one day you can see the errors of your ideologies and turn away from a life of lies. End of conversation.

      • My points were perfectly logical, based solidly on reason and whats more are built on decades of scientific evidence. There was no shred of ideology about them and no lies whatsoever. Lying includes denying evidence (disproving it or trying to is different but acting as if it isn’t there when it is is either deliberate deception of others or is self-deception!). Meanwhile you call me a liar but can show no lie that I have told for i have told none. Earlier you paraphrased Mathew 7:6 but you need to go back to your bible and read Mathew 7:1-5 and 7:9-12 again and remind yourself what Christ taught about charity and how to treat others and about not judging others. This conversation won’t end here but as Jesus taught you it will end in the afterlife where you must account with your maker for how you have treated others and then and only then will this conversation truly end. You can try and shroud the wicked treatment of an innocent transgender child in the false clothes of pretend righteousness but you will be weighed and measured for it and held to account for such uncharitable unchristian wickedness. Before you so swiftly judge others first remember what Jesus taught and act as the Christ taught you to.

      • Kat, I completely agree with your comments. It’s well documented that communism has been pushing the LGBT agenda in order to breakdown traditional morality and cause social chaos. Also I question the “genetic” arguement:, its more likely some or all of these factors a) poor nutrition or other factors effecting the fetus in-utero, b) chemicals, additives, excessive intake of soy (which contains phytoestrogens) soy is endemic in the processed food supply c) the life experiences of the child ie the quality and nature of the parenting or lack of d) lack of appropriate role models e) its trendy and acceptable especially as it is promoted to vulnerable people.
        Why should the taxpayer the govt health care pay for the surgery and then the ongoing medication in order for the person to maintain the assumed gender?

        And something that is never discussed – the thousands of animals subjected to experimentation for these people to be able to achieve their surgically induced gender. They have even been subjecting them to experiments on how an artifical female could carry an artificially induced pregnancy, It is on this base of cruelty that their “gender transition” has been made possible. Why has no one mentioned it?
        As usual a tiny minority doesn’t just want equal rights – it wants more rights taken away from the majority.

      • Spiny when you decide what is ‘more likely’ without any evidence that it is so you are just making things up. And name the rights you claim are taken away from the majority and name the specific claims Transgender people make that exceed what are genuinely just equal rights. As for medical care the healthcare claims on Transgender peoples side have been shown to extend lifespan while purely psychiatric measures have failed to have the same impact.

    • This report is not a lie. The lie being perpetrated by people like you is that parents have no right to protect their children or complain when a delusion boy is given access to their daughters’ change room.

      Post a Reply
      • The person who posted the original report following the False Witness press release has already posted a retraction. The school Principal has been interviewed and the audio is available online. Look them up if you like. You will then see who has been braking the commandment against bearing False Witness.

    • Once again, it has not been debunked. Transgender supporters are simply presenting a falsehood. Transgender supporters believe parents and school girls have no right to complain when a boy is given permission to hang out in female change rooms.

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      • Bernard, you say:

        1. “School girls have been threatened with hate crimes.”

        What is your source for this? Even the attorney for the Pacific Justice Institute puts the matter only as highly as “[School officials] have also thrown around the notion that hate crimes could be charged against students just for talking about this.”

        2. “Why: Because they complained about harassment from a ‘transgender’ boy, who was given access to their bathroom.”

        In what way did the transgender student allegedly harass the girls? Can you please provide a source of your information?

        Or is it simply your belief that the transgender student’s mere presence in the girls’ bathroom inherently constitutes harassment?

      • Troy, unless you are particularly obtuse, it is threatening to throw around the notion of hate crimes charges. And unless you are perverted, you would understand that it is harassment the moment a male enters a female change room and assumes he has free access.

      • Bernard, so:

        1. You have no source that any girls have actually been threatened with hate crimes other than the letter from Pacific Justice Institute?

        2. You concede there is no evidence of any *actual* harassment? (and you assume you know more than the scientific community about the flexibility of gender; ie, that gender isn’t binary)

      • Actually, you state yourself that the notion of hate crimes have been thrown around. I don not concede their is no evidence of harassment. You do by highlighting with your little *’s that actual harassment is a male living it up in the female bathrooms.

      • Bernard, you say “you state yourself that the notion of hate crimes have been thrown around”. I do no such thing. It is the right-wing group’s *lawyers* who make that unproved assertion (hardly a reliable source). Where is the actual evidence? And you keep begging the question. You keep calling the transgender student “male”. In any event, do you concede that, other than your view (not mine) that a transgender student in a girls’ bathroom is inherently harassment, there is no other evidence of harassment?

  25. This has been debunked. It is a beat-up led by one parent.

    “Transgender supporters like to steer clear of facts.”
    Try to steer clear of falsehoods, misinformation and misrepresentations.

    “They prefer ad hominen attacks.”
    Like this one?: “So just how long will it be before Queensland school girls are told to shut up if a confused boy, who probably dreams of being a lesbian, starts perving on them in the toilet block. Probably not long.” Considering you don’t know anything about the person accused in the story, after all.
    http://aebrain.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/bearing-false-witness-chronology.html

    Post a Reply
    • This story has been not debunked. You are just trying to argue that you think it is ok for men to hang out in female change rooms.

      Post a Reply
      • No. I’m saying that the story you presented above has been shown to be made up from whole cloth. A lot of the girl students are actually very supportive of the trans kid, and there is a lot of concern in the school for bullying and violence if this trans kid goes into the boy’s toilets. These elements of the case do not fit your narrative, so you have ignored them.

        You then say that I am arguing for men to be in women’s change rooms, which, if you actually read what I said, you’ll realise that I never said that. Although that doesn’t fit your narrative either. You choose to conflate two different subjects to confuse the topic and reframe it according to a line you may feel on more stable ground arguing.

        So, do you stand by the subject of the article? Do you refute the contrary reports as made-up? Do you accept as completely factual and reliable the PJI’s account? Do you call David McCaine a liar?

        If no, then you must accept that the story as it stands has been debunked.
        If yes, then you cannot be trusted to argue a rational point, as you ignore elements that don’t suit your narrative.

  26. “Transgender policies are dangerous in all sorts of way.”

    How exactly ? Details please, how many people have been tortured or beaten to death by intolerant transgender people ? How many gay ot transgender people have been tortured or beaten to death by homophobic bigots ?

    The real risk is not transgender laws it is intolerant hate filled narrow minded bigots.

    Post a Reply
    • Bernard

      You have not answered my question

      I think it is important to hear the facts about this What is the danger of a transgender person using a toilet ?

      What are the real dangers of transgender policies ?

      Post a Reply
      • If you can’t see the danger in supporting delusion with delusion and asking the rest of society to lie, then you don’t understand what danger is.

      • So everyone you believe is deluded is a risk

        or are everyone I believe is deluded a risk ?

        Who decides who is rational and who is delusional ?

        Are you saying you are the ultimate world authority on who is delusional and who is not ?

        If you are that actually sounds pretty delusional to me 🙂

      • Remind me

        How many people have been tortured or beaten to death by intolerant transgender people ? How many gay ot transgender people have been tortured or beaten to death by homophobic bigots ?

        As a trained professional soldier why are you frightened of a ” confused *” school kid ?

        * your term not mine 🙂

      • Simple question Bernard

        Would you mind giving an answer ?

      • Simple question Bernard Would you mind giving an answer ?

      • Doug, while I understand the desire to base your ideas on fact, I hope you can also understand that in some cases the ‘statistics’ we demand are the very tragedies that we should be trying to avoid. Bernie (who is by no means alone in his ideas) is hoping to avoid more cases of harassment like the one described in the article, by voicing his opposition to proposed transgender laws.
        Let me ask a question in response to yours: is it better to avoid the possibility of harassment or abuse, or rather to wait and see how many cases of harassment occur by treating Queensland girls as guinea pigs to untested laws? And if we must wait for statistics to be sure that such a law is indeed a bad one, how many young Australians should be harassed or abused before their experiences cease to be passed off as ‘hate crimes’ or anomalies? Do we really need statistics, or just a good dose of common sense?
        In parenting, there are some lessons best taught by allowing children to make their own mistakes. Other lessons can be taught by explanations that appeal to reason. You wouldn’t allow your child to learn the hard way that drinking poison is harmful, any more than you would allow them to learn about stranger danger by letting them take a trip in a stranger’s car.
        I suppose that in politics and in law, nations similarly learn both by their own experience and by learning from the experiences of other nations. I would suggest that putting young people in unnecessary danger of harassment or abuse – in the sense of inviting transgender males into female toilets (or vice versa) – is a case of history that doesn’t need repeating. Actually, I’m surprised that you haven’t mentioned the potential of abuse posed to transgender male students using male toilets to argue your case… That would make some sense, although I would preface such an argument with these considerations: first, that giving access to opposite sex toilets would be jumping on a bandaid ‘cure’ rather than addressing the real issue of unacceptable behaviour of the theoretical abusive males in this scenario; secondly, if providing opposite-sex toilet access is the answer, then the same access ought to be given to all male victims of abuse that occurs in male toilets, shouldn’t it? Or perhaps we should just skip all the confusion and provide a separate toilet block altogether for transgender males, one for transgender females too (just to keep things fair), and while we’re at it, one for victims of bullying, and another for gays… And that still doesn’t solve our problem of transgender students who are given to harassment!
        Perhaps it should also be pointed out that, at least in Australia, we are hardly experiencing an outcry from young transgender girls and boys demanding access to opposite sex toilets.
        Perhaps a better question is this: why do parents support a drastic gender orientation-switch for their child who isn’t considered ready to vote, drive a car or drink alcohol responsibly…and which essentially won’t change the fact of that child’s natural gender?
        Perhaps we should be asking ourselves why – if the world has become so accepting in this enlightened modern age – do young people feel the need to undergo drastic physical operations, hormone therapy, change their name or engage in cross-dressing in order to validate their feelings? If it is fine and right and natural for a boy to be attracted to other boys or to act or feel like a female (as opposed to being effeminate), why does he need to change his body to look like a girl’s, act like a girl, or use girls’ toilets?
        Perhaps we should be questioning the issue of positive discrimination, and wondering why it’s acceptable to give minority groups rights that impinge on the basic rights of others.
        Perhaps, Doug, the question we should be asking is: where is the pressure for transgender law, unisex toilets and the rest coming from?
        And perhaps finally…where does it all end?

      • “If you can’t see the danger in supporting delusion with delusion and asking the rest of society to lie, then you don’t understand what danger is.”

        That’s just a cop out, Bernard. State your reasons, or are you afraid to?

  27. I’m almost surprised that transgender advocates haven’t jumped on this post to claim that transgenders can do no wrong. It seems to me that members of the LGBT community are quite happy to cry discrimination when they’re investigated for wrong doing, but will strongly deny any possibility that members of their community might do the wrong thing. In this case we see a transgender apparently being protected even though they apparently harassed the girls who were threatened with hate crime charges. In another instance here in Queensland a gay couple paid a Russian woman to give them a baby, then made claims of discrimination because the police were doing their jobs, when in the end it turned out they were involved in abusing their boy while claiming to be innocent victims of discrimination. I think this attitude of “they can do no wrong” must stop. People who are in the LGBT community can and have done wrong, and if they do wrong, they must be punished just like everyone else. That’s equality!

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